well, it's going to be conversation between blind and mute.
i readed a lot too. just becouse it is story of my country.
and about pathetic, i can say the same about alies. which had their own reasons for showing their reality.

but when i will have time today - i will answer. sorry, but all my books about WW2 r in Belarus, so i just not able to link my talk to them (i mean references)

well, at first i would like to say. that i had great History teachers in school and Uni.
i am physicist but history was alway my kinda hobby. and becouse my grandfather and grandother r teachers (1 pair) i always had access to very good library. and they r not fanatics of ussr or communism.
i ANSWERED on your post. becouse without your post i would not write mine.
answered becouse i dont see your point. why u mentioned jewish peeps in your post i have no idea.
u read a lot? that's really great. in our times peoples dont read books.
but what i know now - to think. becouse i read a lot too and there r so many versions about some events.. and sometimes even references to official documents r wrong.
so i READ - and think. and yet - i think speaking with participant of events bring more truth than slutty historics (not all of course)


kewl


yep. that is what i am talking about. they were ANTI-humanists. i dont know why all of u highlight anti-semitic... well, being anti-norwegian it's better than anti-semitic? sure... nobody cares..


agree.


ermm. well, he started politic of anti-semism when he became Kanzler.
maybe u know about Nurnbergs law? (jews lost some peoples right) or "crystal night" in november of 1938? or first concentration camp in Dahau (i think it spells so) in 1933.
about "final solution". in 1942, in Wannsee, near Berlin, shefs of ss and some other bosses "developed" plan of final solution. and half year before Wannsee was brief from Heydrich to Hering (creator of ss) with charge to make all neede work about financial and organizations questions for realization of "final soluion plan"



seems we r talking about different times. i mean not just before war.. earlier..at the begin of 30th.
1921-1937 from Poland to USA, Latin America, Europe moved 395 000 jews.
1923-1937 from Poland to Palestine moved 270 000 jews
reference - "Najnowsze dzieje zydow w Polsce" S. 164,165.



sure


of course


sry, i dont get what u said (might be my english of course)


i dont know exactly ammount of camps but i think u r right.



well, that's unsubstantiated statement. knowing about products from peoples leather + there r many doc. movies and photos where u can see a thousands of peoples on mass-meeting with "greetings" to Hitler.




nope, i got your previous post.


i might be wrong. sure. like anybody else.



i like that. but what is it? "most accepted"? who accept? how many?



i think at the moment we r talking not only about holocaust?


well, voicing? i read books, i listen to peoples who were at ww2, were in camps.
many historians? that's voice. there r many versions as i said. and u simple say - it sucks, that rocks. (well my post was the same, sry. i was just a bit lame. i belive in something only when i hear that from peoples i trust or saw that or that's just statistic from neutral side)


errm. we dont know what they knew. it's just impossible to know. but IMHO they knew all. just were scared or agreed with that



and again "most". u should use that word very carefull.



as i said we were talking about different times.
about east. well, part of Belarus was under ussr, but west part not.
the same with Ukraine.
ok, pure statistic.
1939-1940 many jews moved to Belarus from Poland.
in the beginig of 1940 in Belarus were 72896 refugees from Poland (P.Eberhardt from his book)





well again, u divide deads on kinda good and bad...
Gipsys. nazi tryed to destroy them all.
about Serbia (again spelling... sry. that was part of Jugoslavia).. genocide was.. and U, west europe, continued genocide against them in our time.
Slavs.. well.. in Belarus r many vilages that were burned with peoples... a hundreds of vilages. with belarusin peoples... one my grandfather told me how he with in train full of our peoples.. they took them to one place to burn all of them alive. about 1000 peoples. he escaped coz matures break 1 plank in wall.. axis shooted him.. but he ran away..
but he is not jews so who cares.


who knows, maybe. i did not think about it.




well, i dont want to say that was 5 or 1 or 10 millions. i dunno.
but i found some very funny things.
let me show it.
1939's census in east Belarus - 375,1k jews
1931's census in west Belarus (polish census) - 283,3k jews (in 1939)
+ 72896 refugees
= 731k

but in some sources i saw that polish census is claimed as wrong and not 283,3k but more
and they say that whole ammount jews in whole Belarus was about 723,5k. ok
723,5 + 72896 = 796,4k
that's all statistic!
ok, now some numbers, in todays literature authors call numbers of killed jews during ww2 in Belarus - from 400k till 810k
that's about Belarus.
foreign authors:
P.Eberhardt - 520,9k *****Eberhardt P. Przemiany narodowosciowe na Bialorusi... S. 104-110
R.Hilberg - 1 million (the same like Encyclopaedia of Holocaust, i think main book about those terrible events) ***** Hilberg R. The Destruction of the European Jews. Revised and Definitive Edition. N.Y.-L., Holmes and Meier, 1985. P. 767; Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust. Ed. by I. Gutman. Jerusalem, 1990. V. 1-4.
M.Gilbert - 246k ***** Gilbert M. Atlas of the Holocaust. Philadelphia, 1982. P. 224.

next
after ww2. at 6th July in 1946 Poland and USSR agreed to let polish jews and just polish to return to Poland from ussr.
before 15th august 233198 peeps moved to Poland. 136579 of them were jews.
so... who is right? i dunno.. but i dont think that R.Hilberg and Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust r right.. u can clearly c that. mistake? or they write numbers just taking them from head?!


well. say now what is fundamentally wrong in my opinion?
i am sorry if i offended u with my rude post. and hope that u had no wish to offend me with your post.


IMHO, unless u r children - u follow. u dont follow if u fight against.




well, i dont understand what u have against Eastern Europe? u was in my country? u judge by articles in "Sun"?
during the cold war i never thought bad about west.. just becouse i was not there. how could i judge them.

as i say i am physicist.
and we have one by-word
i will try to translate it

"many science think they r exact sciences, but this is not truth. only Physic is exact sciences, becouse Physic knows that it's not exact itselfs"
hope u got sence.
History vulgarized itself already long time ago.


btw, i was wrong about Dresden
not 100k but 250k
i got some info about it. with exact times and so on.
there is even short doc.movie. but i will dl it later.
so what is saying official British history about Dresden?
silence...


sry again for errors. i dont have time to check all words.
and i write that in Notepad so no smiles

ah forgot
in Latvia 90% of killed jews - were killed by inhabitants.
in Ukraina MANY jew were killed by Cossacks. but that's long story.
their hate to each other goes from old times.
when was Russain Empire - Cossacks were stronger
1917's revolution - jews got the power and many Cossacks were killed.
1941-1945 - Cossacks killed a lot of jews.

old and not nice story.

edit: about the above post, yup, very nasty and deep routed anti-semitism.
---



Because the concentration camps were constructed to deal with prisoners of war and especially ethnic minorities... of course it's important, the significant amount of deaths were of jewish people in these camps. Of course this is dwarfed by WW2 casualties but the two entities are largely different... you do know why concentration camps were constructed right? Death/concentration camps were used to eliminate large populations Work Camps and prisons were generally where POWs were sent, not concentration camps if that;s what your meaning.



I'd recommend reading:
Dawidowicz, Lucy ?The war against the Jews 1933-1945?*
Gilbert, M. ?The Holocaust. The Jewish Tragedy?*
Hilberg, Paul ?The Destruction of the European Jews?
Poliakov, Leon ?The History of Anti-Semitism? (3vols)*
Reitlinger, Gerald ?The Final Solution?

Dawidowicz is a Jewish historian, but her book doesn't have such a plain view as you might expect. There is no known total death toll, this is due to many governments not keeping accurate records (and by governments I'm talking about the occupied governments). The records in ukraine and Poland are far from accurate and thusly this is why it's impossible to know an accurate figure for the ammounts of death.




No, not really, they were anti-semetic. The nazi's judged people by race and religion, and this is what the word means. anti-humanist is made up btw, but I think you mean they treated everyone non-aryian the same? Not so, Jewish, Blacks and Slavs were at the bottom of the Nazi's idea of the master race.

I think a dictionary definition is necessary:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=anti-semitic

It means a racist and religious intolerant, it does not apply exclusively to the jews, it's just as a highly persecuted faith, it has become associated with it, just like the word holocaust has (although holocaust was first used to describe the masskillings of the jews in london, but the word means annhilation of entire peoples.)



Of course, this is basic knowledge. Yes, anti-semitism, erradication, no, starting the holocaust, no.



Ditto, Of course, but you are saying anti-jewish rhetoric and actions as the same as the 'Final Solution'. It was not. My interpretation is that of the Functionalist idea, not the intentionalist. Maybe you fall under the intentionalist arguement?

In retrospect, evidence points towards the idea that anti-Semitism by the nazis took on a step-by-step approach from the boycott of Jewish businesses from March 26th 1933, through to the removal of Jewish citizens civil liberties in the Nuremberg Laws, September 1935, and finally the removal of the Jews altogether (ghettos/work camps), but this was only much latter, and then the annhilation of the jews (concentration camps, mobile death squads) from late 1939 after the outbreak of war.



I may be mistaken but this was a work camp, the first concentration/death camp was made in 1939.



This is proving my point and conflicting what you said earlier. initially there was no extermination, the polciy was to exclude the Jewish people from german society, but at some point in 1941 as i said in my previous 'answer' the polciy was stepped up to extermination with the final solution. The basis of the biggest school of thought, that being the functionalists is this, and there is a lot of evidence and interpretation surround this. Casting it off in such an offhanded manor is not as simple as you seem to do by simply saying 'u r wrong'



True, like I said I'm not denying anything like this, I just said it was irrelevant to what I said in answering the initial question. The vast majority of the Jewish pop. was in the east, and Britain closed access to Palestine and Britain because they felt that anti-semitism would develop in mainland Britain as it had done in the past. USA did the same. Both nations could have and would have taken in a larger percentage if they knew that the exclusion would emerge as annhilation.



Read up a bit, the anti-semitic polices of the nazis developed over time, annhilation was not commited as a policy until 1939. Hitler's rheotoric is the only place the subject materialised at until then. Explusion and disenfranchising was the polciy before then.



No i don't know the exact amount either without looking it up, but it was much, much higher than any other nation to reflect the size of the Jewish population, and the sparsity and already anti-semitic roots of this region meant that it was the place where the camps emerged.



no problems, very easy to understand, and I do see your point of view on many things, Just not how they apply to the question but you are right on most matters, or consitent to what I have learnt and been taught.

ps. Can you use this writing style for dicussions, Its a lot easier to follow and read in sentaces and real paragraph structure, the fragmented lines make it hard for me to understand some stuff your trying to say which wasn't as clear in your first post

oh, so much to write now.
i am going to find to eat sumthing and then will answer.
but u skip some parts again

?

Only those that are irrelevant to the question, you do a huge bit of 'skiiping too' so don't fault someone on answering appropriately, I wouldn't fault you on doing the same. Also please try and stick to the subject cos i really don't care about anything unrelated, or rather have to churn through lots of stuff you don't need to say. I will have most likely heard it all before, so it will save you the effort of typing and me the chore of reading it

I'll let you have the last word though, I think I answered the question accurately highlighting the main reasons why concentration camps were more present in poland, ukraine, etc. and if you can include some books of reference too it helps so I can eventually get round to reading up on where your coming from.

thx,
Spud.dupS

PS. Can you reveal what the results of the test are please?

test? which one?

the reason why we are even talking about this:


you wasn't you, but anr11, don't worry

doh! i think i must worry..
me is not me


btw, it's 5am here
4am in England...
i must admit - it's not good for health.
internet in the night.

say, this is turning into quite the histo-political debate, and its good to see it not turn into namecalling and shit.
citing historical information and statistics doesnt have too much impact for me, history is written by the victors like winston 'chubbiekins' churchill barked. i do believe other countries jumped in on the bandwagon and did some wholesale slaughter of peoples they wanted to get rid of, use as slave labor, or just didnt like the looks of.
i'm sure most germans,nazis, polish,russians,itallians,japanese, even ones who were involved directly with genocide are not that much different than you or me, they were just under different circumstances at the time, and that is just sad. no matter how 'enlightend' a species we are, we're never far from what we really are.

Very true, but I think in a pm to prayer I said something about history.
There is no such thing as "The history of the world" there is only a history of the world, and each one must be analyised as that.

spudthedestroyer
when i will have free time today or tomorrow i will answer on pm
i am so fooking busy today... no wish to think..

oh please, i think this discussion is really interesting, don?t shut us (me) out by continuing over pm. seriously, as long as the discussion coninuies like this in a civilised manner...

Seems this thread will never die

ok.....
so whats up with the french? frogslegs, snails, chicks with hairy armpits? isnt it aboot time they got invaded again?
i'm looking at you, norway, so c'mon, invade 'em, show the whole world norway isnt a bunch of punks.
next stop, invading antartica. the penguins would never expect it.

don?t undersetimate the penguins, they?re ice-cold killers.

the attack plan is brilliant:
we all show up, saying it's a surprise party. we come dressed in business casual atire.
then when they all are embaressed for being overdressed, we slaughter them mercilessly while they are changing out of thier tuxedos.

then we head to the other pole, conquer it. at last we can copyright/patent/whatever the magnetic field, thus anyone using a compass must pay royalties.
monkey 'king of the polar bears' smasher.

I think what prayer just wants to say is that the russians got a rough deal when it comes to credit for stopping hitler.....

Hitler had very nasty plans for the russians indeed...to the west it was conquest - to the east it was extermination......this word choice I quote from a recent documentary....and not some old cold-war biased public school history book.....

Here's something that'll infuriate a few of you , but I don't give a damn for it's the truth ; Britain would have collapsed were it not for uncle sam's lifeline......were as russia would still go on existing even if stalingrad collapsed...in whatever form.....
I mean come on ! there just weren't enough soldiers to occupy every square km of the sovjetunion.....and those supply lines getting longer and longer...

Russia did indeed take the bulk of the pounding - but what do western history books focus on ? Just on how many millions stalin killed in his own country.....HEY ! not denying it didn't happen, but stone cold thruth is, if it weren't for russia (i.e europe directly bordering on china), those of us allowed to get born would all be speaking german today.....

ohgodnotanotherone
actually i did not mean that. lol
i think all made their job good.
just now i sometimes hear from americans that they won the war. they made even ussr free. just funny.

of course, Russia had the highest death count of all Allied armies and without their participation the whole of Europe would have crumbled and fallen. America was instrumental to the Allies winning the war though, without their participation D-day could have gone hideously wrong. It's just that's nothing to do with concentration camps.



Actually your very wrong if your referring to the English education system, we were taught nothing of the sort really, of course we were taught of the rutherlessness, genocide and the great pruges for example, but infact the main body of study was analysis of what Stalin did for the empire and what he did to harm the empire. It isn't as one sided. Not here at least, possible in other education systems. The only thing regrettable is that it can not possible be taught in great depth over a two year period. There are many books on the subject, but not solely.

However this is offtopic and I'll be quiet now