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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:34 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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Blood Sucking Freak
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Hi, another question, at what bitrate level would you recommend using Jawor's ZXM matrix ? :beerchug:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:42 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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The Ancient One
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You mean Jawors ZSM, I presume? Check here: http://jawormat.republika.pl/matrices.html

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:12 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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Slayer wrote:
You mean Jawors ZSM, I presume? Check here: http://jawormat.republika.pl/matrices.html


Cheers, yes I meant ZSM :oops: I already have it was just wondering what is considered to be 'Higher bitrates' ?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:23 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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The Ancient One
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When you have good compressibilty you can encode on a high bitrate, I'm not sure about exact figures.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:40 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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The Ancient One
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Here is a small graph from elguaxo covering some matrices:

Code:
---------------------------------
Less Details/More Compressibility
---------------------------------
              ^
              |
          EQM V3ULR
              |
 Jawor's 1CD (or Soulhunters v8)
              |
          EQM V3LR
              |
         Jawor's ZSM
              |
          EQM V3HR
              |
          Heini_MR
              |
       SixOfNine-HVS
              |
            6of9
              |
              V
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
More Details/Less Compressibility
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


When encoding to XviD I suggest using a lossless pass first. This means that you encode with a codec that makes no compression at all, like HFYU (also included in ffdshow). You will get a bigger file, because there is no compression, but with the file you can experiment to find the correct matrix faster (because you don't have to apply all AviSynth filters each time you encode; you just convert the lossless file to an XviD file).

If you have no idea which matrix to choose. Pick the one in the middle. If the file becomes undersized (smaller than you want) you can choose a matrix that keeps more details (down in the graph). If the file becomes bigger or the XviD quantizer (compression ratio) becomes too high, you should choose another matrix that is up in the graph. The XviD quantizer of your encoded file should be between 2 and 4.

Here is an example (This dialog should popup when encoding to XviD. Only data shown in the second pass is relevant.):

Image

Total Quant Avg: 4.98 (is bigger than 4) The higher the number the more XviD has to compress the image/frame and the worse the quality will be. So in this example the encoder should reencode with a matrix that keeps less details and go up the graph. That should result in a lower Quant Avg the next time.

I hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:08 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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The Ancient One
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Or you can run a comptest using the matrix in question. Comp values of 70-80% are usually fine if you're not using any filters that need to be taken into account.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:28 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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Ok guys thanks for replying, I'll read through it properly later when I get home from work. :beerchug:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:53 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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Hi again, just came across a bit of an oddity and not sure how to procede, Just ripped a R2 Pal dvd with DVD decrypter which said the framerate was 25fps, but when I opened the Vobs with DGIndex and pressed F5 to start the info box said it was 20fps ?? At first I thought i must have f*cked something up so I ripped it again but the same thing happened :outsider:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:07 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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Ok, ignore my above post, sorted it now, still had 'force film' checked from a previous rip. :oops:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:29 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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Hi again, I have heard of zone cropping in GK and I have a couple of dvd's that need it I believe but I have no idea how to, can anyone point me in the right direction :beerchug:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:47 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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The Ancient One
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Yes :)

Code:
#  CROPPING
aa=trim(0,56394).crop(12,2,-10,-4).Spline36Resize(704,528)
ab=trim(56395,76429).crop(14,2,-10,-4).Spline36Resize(704,528)
ac=trim(76430,76540).crop(22,2,-10,-4).Spline36Resize(704,528)
ad=trim(76541,85917).crop(14,2,-10,-4).Spline36Resize(704,368)


x=(aa + ab + ac  + ad)

x.


This is an example of zone cropping. This one has four zones.

*The letters at start can be changed, ffor example if you have few zones, you can leave it at one letter. However, with more than 26 zones you will need to do something like in the example.
*The first set of numbers between brackets are the framenumbers (so you alway start with 0 and your last number should be equal to the toal number of frames, in this example 85917).
*The second set of numbers is how much you crop in each zone. The order is like this: left, upper side, right, lower side. This is easily done in DGIndex, but when you have to IVTC you better do it in AvsP. Check the cropping in the GK interface and then put the numbers in your script (avs file) like in the example.
*The x= part puts all zones back together.
*After x. you continue with the script. In the simplest case it will be resizing.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:23 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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Slayer wrote:
Yes :)

Code:
#  CROPPING
aa=trim(0,56394).crop(12,2,-10,-4).Spline36Resize(704,528)
ab=trim(56395,76429).crop(14,2,-10,-4).Spline36Resize(704,528)
ac=trim(76430,76540).crop(22,2,-10,-4).Spline36Resize(704,528)
ad=trim(76541,85917).crop(14,2,-10,-4).Spline36Resize(704,368)


x=(aa + ab + ac  + ad)

x.


This is an example of zone cropping. This one has four zones.

*The letters at start can be changed, ffor example if you have few zones, you can leave it at one letter. However, with more than 26 zones you will need to do something like in the example.
*The first set of numbers between brackets are the framenumbers (so you alway start with 0 and your last number should be equal to the toal number of frames, in this example 85917).
*The second set of numbers is how much you crop in each zone. The order is like this: left, upper side, right, lower side. This is easily done in DGIndex, but when you have to IVTC you better do it in AvsP. Check the cropping in the GK interface and then put the numbers in your script (avs file) like in the example.
*The x= part puts all zones back together.
*After x. you continue with the script. In the simplest case it will be resizing.


Ok, cheers for replying Slayer, however you have just blown my mind :? any chance of something a bit more directed at 'n00bs' :lol: you mention scripts but I have no idea how to use them, do I need to install the filter pack ??


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:02 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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The Ancient One
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OK :)

Image

You already are using scripts. Without them you can't make rips. They are the files with the extension .avs, you create them in the process just before you start encoding (when you click the "Save&Encode"button you can see on the screen above you get a pop-up window enabling you to save the script as an .avs file).

In order to put stuff in your script, use the Edit button you can see in the screenshot above. It opens up a window with a lot of text. Just put the zone cropping under the CROPPING header like in my example, don;'t forget to put something behind the x. and you are ready to go!

Btw: if you still want to do more 'n00b' stuff, I'd put the whole zone cropping on hold for a while. It is very unforgiving: you make one mistake (a number somewhere) and it will mess up your entire rip. However, if it works, the quality of your rip will increase a lot.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:34 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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Yeah, I'd take Slayer's advice and learn to walk before you can run - This isn't something for beginners, but if you really want to try it...

(I typed this out earlier today but have only just been able to post it)

A script refers to an AviSynth script. GK automagically makes one for you, and if you want to do something like zoned cropping, you'll need to edit it manually.

You'll need to download AvsP. There's no instalation, so just extract it to a folder somewhere.

Do everything you usually do in GK, but when you get to the 'Save.avs' window click on the 'Save' button. This will save the .avs script which you'll be using for reference. Close GK.

open in notepad the .avs you just saved.

Run AvsP.exe

The first thing you need to add in AvsP is the .d2v file that was created when you processed the VOBs in GK. So, from the .avs you have open in notepad, copy the line that starts with mpeg2source and paste it into AvsP. Mine looks like this:

Code:
mpeg2source("C:\Users\junkboy\Documents\cat\videofile.d2v")


If you needed to IVTC, then that needs to be added as well. Copy/paste the line that starts with Telecide. It will now look something like this:

Code:
mpeg2source("C:\Users\junkboy\Documents\cat\videofile.d2v")

Telecide(order=1,guide=1).Decimate()


(If you don't need to IVTC, the mpeg2source line is all you need)

Next, press F5 to bring up the preview in AvsP - you should now see the first frame of your video.

Scroll through it and find where the least amount of cropping is needed (that is, where the black bars are the smallest).

When you've found a suitable scene, right-click on the preview window and click on 'Crop editor...'.

In the Crop editor window that's now open, select 'At script end' from the drop-down menu next to 'Insert Crop() command:'.

Now use the arrows to crop away the black borders (what and how much you crop can be seen in the preview). Make sure the crop values you finish on are even numbers.

When you're done cropping, click on 'Apply' - the crop values will be added to the script and the preview will refresh, showing the newly cropped image. The script will now look something like this:

Code:
mpeg2source("C:\Users\junkboy\Documents\cat\videofile.d2v")

Telecide(order=1,guide=1).Decimate()

Crop(12, 10, -12, -10)


Copy those three lines and press Ctrl+N - This will open a duplicate of the script in a new tab, and you'll need it later.

Go back to the first tab.

Move the slider to the very beginning of the movie, and from here it's a case of scrolling through the movie (using the slider or the right arrow key) to find sections with black borders that need the different zones applying to them. When you find a section with black borders you need to find the new crop value and add it to the script.

For example: If frames 0 -> 236 are okay but frames 237 -> 400 need an extra 4 pixels cropping off the right, you'll add this to the script (after the cropping):

Code:
#a=trim(0,236).Crop(12, 10, -12, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)
#b=trim(237,400).Crop(12, 10, -16, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)


You get the resizing (LanczosResize(704,384) in this example) from the .avs you have opened in notepad.

Notice the " # " before each line - This cancels out whatever is after it, and you need to add it otherwise you won't be able to continue scrolling through the movie.

You can use the crop editor to find the new crop values, but it's probably easier to do it manually. Just remember to change the new crop values to what they were originally, before you continue looking for sections with black borders.

You continue like that until the end of the movie, by which time you could end up with a lot of zones. For this example though, we'll just say frames 401 -> 2000 (the end in this example) are okay, so that will make the script look like this:

Code:
#a=trim(0,236).Crop(12, 10, -12, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)
#b=trim(237,400).Crop(12, 10, -16, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)
#c-trim(401,2000).Crop(12, 10, -12, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)


Delete the original cropping values (Crop(12, 10, -12, -10) in this case)

Delete all the " # "

Now they (a, b and c) need to be joined together. So in this case you would add a+b+c like this:

Code:
a=trim(0,236).Crop(12, 10, -12, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)
b=trim(237,400).Crop(12, 10, -16, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)
c-trim(401,2000).Crop(12, 10, -12, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)
a+b+c


The full script will now look like this:

Code:
mpeg2source("C:\Users\junkboy\Documents\cat\videofile.d2v")

Telecide(order=1,guide=1).Decimate()

a=trim(0,236).Crop(12, 10, -12, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)
b=trim(237,400).Crop(12, 10, -16, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)
c-trim(401,2000).Crop(12, 10, -12, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)
a+b+c


It's advisable to check everything is okay, else you could end up with sections in the wrong order. To do this, just toggle between the two tabs, and if everything's gone well they will both be on the same frame. Scroll around the movie while alternating tabs to check different sections just to be doubly sure.

That's the zoned cropping done and you're ready to encode.

Open GK and the .d2v as you usually do. Everything should be set-up as you left it, but check to see if you need to change anything. When you get to the 'Save .avs' window, click on 'Edit' and add the zoned cropping, replacing the crop and resize. Using the example here, it will look like this:

Code:
#  DEINTERLACING (3) - special requests
#GreedyHMA(1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0)
#Telecide()
#SeparateFields()

#  CROPPING
a=trim(0,236).Crop(12, 10, -12, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)
b=trim(237,400).Crop(12, 10, -16, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)
c-trim(401,2000).Crop(12, 10, -12, -10).LanczosResize(704,384)
a+b+c

#  DENOISING: choose one combination (or none)
Undot()


Click on 'Save & Encode' and continue as you would normally.

Good luck :)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:45 am  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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junkboy wrote:
Yeah, I'd take Slayer's advice and learn to walk before you can run - This isn't something for beginners, but if you really want to try it...

Good luck :)


Lol, after reading all that I think I'm gonna need it :o Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me, I've pasted all of yours and Slayers advice into Evernote to read through when I've got a bit more time, really want to be able to do it as I have some 'Shameless films' Dvd's with 'restored scenes' which have very different black bars throughout due to the main parts of the films being widescreen and some of the restored scenes appear to be from 4:3 AR video footage, tried cropping the whole of the films to the worst borders but that just f*cked up the rest of the movie, so I might put them on hold for a while until I've cracked this 'Zone cropping' properly, got plenty of other stuff ripped and ready to go.
Anyway thanks again Junkboy and Slayer for helping me, you two are legends :beerchug:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:12 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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In the case of mixed AR sources, you risk stretching the image in the 4:3 parts by too much if you crop them fully, so you're probably better off just leaving those sections with the borders.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:57 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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The Ancient One
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junkboy wrote:
In the case of mixed AR sources, you risk stretching the image in the 4:3 parts by too much if you crop them fully, so you're probably better off just leaving those sections with the borders.
Yes, this.

Zoned cropping is for wandering borders. When you have made your d2v an open it in GK and press play, and you see one of the borders "wobble" (for some reason I see it mostly on the left, but that doesn't say anything), press stop. Then go through it slowly and see if the black bar is switching indeed. If so, then zoned cropping is in order.

For different AR's it is not the right solution.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:55 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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The Ancient One
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Slayer wrote:
Zoned cropping is for wandering borders. When you have made your d2v an open it in GK and press play, and you see one of the borders "wobble" (for some reason I see it mostly on the left, but that doesn't say anything), press stop. Then go through it slowly and see if the black bar is switching indeed. If so, then zoned cropping is in order.

For different AR's it is not the right solution.


So what is the solution for a changing AR?

Reminds me of a DVD which I've never gotten round to ripping, because the movie is in 1.85 non-anamorphic with the end credits at 1.33.

The text on the credits fill the 1.33 frame more or less, so cropping this to match the movie itself isn't an option.

I'm sure someone here said to use zone cropping, but after your explanation of what it entails I take it that it wouldn't be suitable.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:05 am  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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junkboy wrote:
In the case of mixed AR sources, you risk stretching the image in the 4:3 parts by too much if you crop them fully, so you're probably better off just leaving those sections with the borders.


What I found was that if I cropped it to where the borders were on the 4:3 AR parts, then the 16:9 parts appeared to have what I can only describe as 'Aliasing' as you would see on a game without having anti-aliasing enabled, I did consider leaving it with the borders on the side of the 4:3 parts but didn't think this would be acceptable and assumed that I would need to use zone cropping, however after what you guys have just said I may go back to leaving the borders on the sides :beerchug:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:53 pm  Post subject: Re: Beginners Guide To Ripping With Gordian Knot
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MCMLXXXVIII wrote:
So what is the solution for a changing AR?

Reminds me of a DVD which I've never gotten round to ripping, because the movie is in 1.85 non-anamorphic with the end credits at 1.33.

The text on the credits fill the 1.33 frame more or less, so cropping this to match the movie itself isn't an option.

I'm sure someone here said to use zone cropping, but after your explanation of what it entails I take it that it wouldn't be suitable.


I think separate clips with different AR's can be joined and used with x264. Not too sure about that though.

If it's just the credits and they are plain text, then use zoned cropping. Even though they might look a bit odd, I doubt anyone will complain (that is if they even bother watching them).

Eldin wrote:
What I found was that if I cropped it to where the borders were on the 4:3 AR parts, then the 16:9 parts appeared to have what I can only describe as 'Aliasing' as you would see on a game without having anti-aliasing enabled, I did consider leaving it with the borders on the side of the 4:3 parts but didn't think this would be acceptable and assumed that I would need to use zone cropping, however after what you guys have just said I may go back to leaving the borders on the sides :beerchug:


You'll be losing a lot of information from the 16:9 sections if you crop the 4:3 sections, won't you? If not, then maybe zoned cropping is possible for that source. I'm not a gamer, but there is aliasing in the encoding world, though I don't know if it's the same - Maybe upload a small sample containg the transition from 4:3->16:9 (or Vice-versa) and let someone take a look at it for you. The same applies to whenever you're having difficulty with any encode you might be working on and need help with it (be it with pulldown, or just general filtering). A small untouched sample of the source is nearly always needed.


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