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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:56 pm  Post subject: Choosing the correct format for web images
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The Ancient One
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I'm tired of people uploading bitmaps or other shitty image formats to the internet. It's also sad that some DVD covers and posters of movies suck, because they are saved using the wrong file format.

Because the format does matter I created this image to help you decide which format to choose in order to receive the smallest size with the best picture quality.

Image

I hope it helps you and feel free to post comments below. :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:07 pm  Post subject:
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Master Of The Dead Donkey
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Very good graph. Now obey it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:49 pm  Post subject:
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Image

Kittens against number of times i get drunk


:) I usually do jpeg at 10 (last notch in best) since its very difficult for the eye to determine quality loss at that level and you can shave mb off a multiple image thread. Its a trade off :(

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:34 pm  Post subject:
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The Devil, Probably
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There is a reason that there is more than one image file format.
JPEG does lossy compression. It was designed to save photo realistic graphics with a reasonable file size. While it is a wide spread format using it for everything is just not correct.

Please pay attention to the graph. It contains knowledge in a compressed format. :googley:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:49 pm  Post subject: Re: ¡Tintorera! (The Silent Death, 1977) --UNCUT, UNCENSORED--
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The Devil, Probably
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Don't save photos as PNG. The format is not ment to be used for this purpose. Use JPEG instead - like you (most likely unintentionally) did for the cover. :googley:

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Next release will be: La Cité Des Entfants Perdu (1995) + Making Of (Status: working on the subtitles)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:04 pm  Post subject: Re: ¡Tintorera! (The Silent Death, 1977) --UNCUT, UNCENSORED--
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PNG were used so that quality is kept and you can see a real capture from the movie, using jpeg will compress further the capture, making the image unrealistic.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:05 pm  Post subject: Re: ¡Tintorera! (The Silent Death, 1977) --UNCUT, UNCENSORED--
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vtwin0001 wrote:
PNG were used so that quality is kept and you can see a real capture from the movie, using jpeg will compress further the capture, making the image unrealistic.


please continue to use PNG, lossless = goodness :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:05 pm  Post subject: Re: ¡Tintorera! (The Silent Death, 1977) --UNCUT, UNCENSORED--
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The Devil, Probably
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spudthedestroyer wrote:
vtwin0001 wrote:
PNG were used so that quality is kept and you can see a real capture from the movie, using jpeg will compress further the capture, making the image unrealistic.


please continue to use PNG, lossless = goodness :)

That's like suggesting to use WAV instead of MP3. :matrix:

EDIT: OK, maybe that's a bit too harsh. WAV would be like using BMP (like Geezus did :roll:). Let's say: it's like suggesting APE instead of MP3.

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Next release will be: La Cité Des Entfants Perdu (1995) + Making Of (Status: working on the subtitles)
Last release was: Svengali (1931)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:32 pm  Post subject: Re: ¡Tintorera! (The Silent Death, 1977) --UNCUT, UNCENSORED--
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Demon Of The Abyss
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spudthedestroyer wrote:
vtwin0001 wrote:
PNG were used so that quality is kept and you can see a real capture from the movie, using jpeg will compress further the capture, making the image unrealistic.


please continue to use PNG, lossless = goodness :)


I will hehehe :beerchug:

RedVeil wrote:
spudthedestroyer wrote:
vtwin0001 wrote:
PNG were used so that quality is kept and you can see a real capture from the movie, using jpeg will compress further the capture, making the image unrealistic.


please continue to use PNG, lossless = goodness :)

That's like suggesting to use WAV instead of MP3. :matrix:

EDIT: OK, maybe that's a bit too harsh. WAV would be like using BMP (like Geezus did :roll:). Let's say: it's like suggesting APE instead of MP3.


Don't worry about screen caps mate ;)

Screen caps won't affect too much your bandwidth :D , besides.. it's friday! :drunk: :drunk: :drunk:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:13 pm  Post subject: Re: ¡Tintorera! (1977) (aka. The Silent Death)
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RedVeil,
JPEG shouldn't have a compression level of greater than 10 (or less than 90%) or their use is worthless, at that size you are looking at a factor of 1-3 for png which is lossless. PNG is about 25% more efficient than GIF.

PNG should be used all the time, look at the REC thread for an example :)

edit: and as a coincidence:
viewtopic.php?p=190391#p190391

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:59 pm  Post subject: Re: ¡Tintorera! (1977) (aka. The Silent Death)
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The Devil, Probably
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Check this post please: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17086
I won't continue "spamming" here. :wink:

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Keep downloaded files shared as long as possible! You wouldn't be able to download without people sharing the stuff.

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Next release will be: La Cité Des Entfants Perdu (1995) + Making Of (Status: working on the subtitles)
Last release was: Svengali (1931)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:23 pm  Post subject: Re: Choosing the correct format for web images
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see my graph ;)

png is a must for taking pictures of rips because it is essential to preserve all information. jpeg at less than has visible deteriation, and even at 90 you can see defects. There are plenty of examples on this forum of poorly chosen jpgs that undersell a rip.

Your graph doesn't work because its about compressibility for saving filesize rather than accurate preservation of detail. When you are talking such small filesize, and the accurate representation of a rip... png is the format to choose.

Ripping is about compressibility compromise, the loss is the accurate preservation of detail therefore it is important to accurately represent the rip with a png. That would be the logic I'd suggest be applied, rather than misrepresenting a rip to save a couple of seconds display time.

For covers, sure I'd totally agree, but for actual screens of your rip you are better off with a lossless format, there are examples of bad screens all over the shop.

Check out screens by hammers (don't mean to pick on anyone, i just noticed the jpgs were compressed here, probably because he posts a lot) which are compressed at about 60-80%, the ones in the highest quality where complaints about the rip have been wrongly made, or the REC thread. You can see here the damage

I have and do use jpgs, at a MINIMUM of 90% (maximum of 10 if in psp), and that i do sparingly because it does deteriate the image visibily in many situations. JPG suffers from the same issues as XviD compression, boundries and detail take a big hit.

My recommendation would be to use png for screenshots where possible, covers, scans, etc. jpg at 10/90%, other less important images use your own choice and increase compressibility if necessary.

If you can't see and are using a well tuned monitor and decent equipment; download a program called beyond compare and get the image plugin... you'll see a lot of loss on all boundaries. That will make it easier to see what other people can see :)

Gif, bmp, etc. should never be used in general use because they are antequated and surpassed. gif only persists because of animation.

Back to where that graph is viable, which is for general web images and design not for representation of rips, W3C recommend png for vector graphics always and I completely agree. GIF is dead, don't use it unless you have animation... which is an area flash has completely removed gif, jpg at 10 for important images, otherwise ramp up the compressibility particularly if it is just solid blocks of colour.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:38 pm  Post subject: Re: Choosing the correct format for web images
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The Ancient One
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The problem with PNG is that is creates the biggest files. Even GIF is usually smaller in size than PNG.

If I save a screenshot in Photoshop as JPEG using the quality 12 (= Highest) you see no change in the image (there is surely some, but you can't see it just by looking at the image) and the file is about a quarter of the PNG's size.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:47 pm  Post subject: Re: Choosing the correct format for web images
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GIF is a flawed compression algorithm, it should never be used. It needs dropping completely from this conversation, its indefensible. It has a terrible colourspace, and was replaced by PNG by W3C for a plethora of reasons. Not to mention it is technically a proprietry format. There's a number of white papers on PNG that explain its downright superiority over GIF, and its all rather damning. Had to read those for my Image and sound processing AI module at uni :lol:

PNG has bigger filesize under the right conditions, obviously, its lossless, which is exactly what your screens of rips would benefit from.

Remember, the claim of detail difference is speculative and opinionated as it is highly dependant on personal perception and you have huge amounts of local variables ranging from your eyes, to your monitors calibration to your colourspace and working environment.

I don't think you can validly criticise someone for using PNG to take screens of rips when in all rights, its using JPGs that is the poorer choice. In fact, I'd encourage PNG over jpg, you can always use thumbnails to reduce display bandwidth.

The graph falls down as its just talking about web graphics, not representation of quality. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:50 pm  Post subject: Re: Choosing the correct format for web images
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I did read JP2000 was supposed to be a great image format, but like most things its plagued by lack of support. Its like PNG and transparency; browsers like IE don't render correctly and fill in transparency as white. That is the sole reason why the dead-donkey logo is gif.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:51 pm  Post subject: Re: Choosing the correct format for web images
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The Ancient One
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spudthedestroyer wrote:
The graph falls down as its just talking about web graphics, not representation of quality. :)


Yes, that pretty much sums it up.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:54 pm  Post subject: Re: Choosing the correct format for web images
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elchupacabra wrote:
spudthedestroyer wrote:
The graph falls down as its just talking about web graphics, not representation of quality. :)


Yes, that pretty much sums it up.



which means for screens of rips its not really applicable :( You should also mix key/non-key frames for similar reasons, that's more sampling the quality under different conditions, whilst png ensures what you show is what you got.

I don't mind the use of jpg at all, and if people use it at the low compressibility its better than nothing, but you certainly can't criticise the use of png when it is a more accurate representaiton :)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:59 pm  Post subject: Re: Choosing the correct format for web images
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The Ancient One
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Yes and I never said it must be used for screenshots of rips.

It is a universal approach which kind of fails in this specific context. If you want absolutely lossless images of rips you need to use PNG. There is no reasonable alternative.

Actually I gathered the information from this book: http://oreilly.com/catalog/9781565925151/ Great book by the way. It's a must have for every web developer. :wink: /advertisement OFF


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:15 pm  Post subject: Re: Choosing the correct format for web images
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web design? have you seen this site? do you think i've heard of web design? :lol: :lol: :lol:
I have no sense of taste or style :wacky:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:17 pm  Post subject: Re: Choosing the correct format for web images
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You must be a natural. :mrgreen:


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