Looks like you've guessed I don't follow Asian cinema, I've seen a handful (Untold Story, Evil Dead Trap etc) but I prefer Italian, English and American horror personally, in that order. I just used those languages as an example because they are unlikely to have many speakers here.

I wasn't saying wait for a dub if there are no subs available but I once read a letter in Dark Side from someone who preferred to watch his horror in the original Italian, probably without subs in those pre-DVD days, even though he didn't speak a word of the language, crazy IMO.

If a rip has no way of watching it in English then it's not worth having on an English website either tagged as LQ or HQ, of course that is just my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own. If subs come along at a later date then it can be reconsidered. I don't think this is me being a Little Englander, as I already stated, if I were browsing a German website I would expect films to be in German.

You`re making a good point but nonetheless I think the categories should be an objective indicator of the quality of the release in question. I also think dubbing is a clear decrease in quality. Hence: original language rip which is also otherwise well made --> HQ section regardless of sub availability.

Besides, "original audio" most of the time is an objective criterion, whereas "sub language" isn`t since it depends on what your spoken languages are.
And subs can always turn up but a ruined rip stays a ruined rip.

Note that I'm not saying that dubbed rips shouldn't be listed. Often there are no better versions available and the only option is a dubbed rip. But since I consider those rips flawed I'd rather they go to the LQ section.

But again, I'm extremely allergic to dubbing.

I personally think of a LQ rip as being something we accept because a better version is not available, and is usually for rare old VHS that haven't had a DVD release. I'm not criticising anyone's rips here, indeed most of my rips are LQ because they are VHS sourced, or worse. I would guess this is how most people think, a LQ rip is superseded by a HQ one should it become avilable.

What I do object to is for me to go to the trouble of sourcing what I consider the best version of a film and then producing the best rip possible in my opinion and then someone treating the rip as being OK until something "better" comes along. In that case to be honest I would rather people with that opinion didn't download it, you obviously think it is an inferior rip. Saves my bandwidth and lets me release more stuff to people who really do want them.

I keep banging on about this but I always include all languages on the disc. I am English and I prefer to watch a film in my own language. I try to give other people the same option. If the original language is on the disc, I will include it. But not as the primary language, it isn't hard to mux the provided mp3.

Agreed

I don't get this one, if the best version is a VHS / LD cap, but then a DVD is made available you would be pissed off because people would download it, thereby superceding your rip?


No, Agreed, it's not difficult, but I can't see many people agreeing with the reasoning behind it.

IMHO I would rather see the film as intended by the director therefore in the language of the production with the voices of the original actors, rather than the K-Tel version (obscure Top of the Pops LP reference!)

However (again my opinion) if all available languages are included and one of them is the original then the movie should be in HQ (although it's a PITA for the non-rippers who appreciate film)

Also, if the version of a film is to be used to determine its quality then what about cuts? If a dubbed uncut release is LQ then a cut one sure as hell is. I for one would prefer a shoddy uncut rip taken from a pirate VHS or VCD than an immaculate rip from a cut DVD. Cuts are far more loathsome that either dubbing or subs.

now THERE'S a con of worms

I'm not sure that would work, what would you define as "uncut"? What about films where the director prefers the cut version? What about director's cuts? What about significantly different TV versions?

And again, it's all opinion, much as I hate cuts, I hate dubbing more.

No I would be delighted to see any of my LQ rips superseded because they are all rare films that I would love to have a HQ copy of. If one of my HQ rips were superseded by a HD-DVD in the future then that's great too, I'm all for better quality. I just object where quality is a matter of opinion as in this case.

I think STR already have this one covered as it happens, haven't you released 2 versions of films in the same thread where there has been a significant difference IIRC. Ferox did this as well with Lizard in a Woman's Skin.
There are loads of criteria that could be brought up though, is 4:3 acceptable when there is a widescreen version?
What about if the 4:3 is open matte (preferable surely but some people still prefer widescreen)?

But if you were already including all languages surely that overrides the opinion and makes it a matter of taste?

i.e dubbing = shit IMHO so I download the movie + the Original Language (OL) + the subs

Your rip would be in HQ because the OL is present

It would be an interesting experiment to release the same film at the same time one rip dubbed and one rip subbed and see which is more popular.

Yeah, I ripped and released Halloween and Halloween TV version, I think there may be more, but I can't remember
no
Theatrical release would IMHO dictate the correct ratio where applicable

I was going to edit my last post, but the points you raised here pretty much make it for me, in as much as ANY hard rules will be arbitrary and some people will disagree with the choices made, it's a question of going with what the majority deem as high / low Quality (or Spud, it's his site and this is NOT a democracy )

As a bit of an afterthough : Even if I preferred English dubs over subs, I'd STILL argue for their movement into lower quality, mainly because it opens up the floodgates for all the german dubs on the ed2k network being included in HQ!!

I think everyone here will have at some point or another downloaded a German dub by mistake, by allowing dubs into HQ your're effectivly greenlighting them!

But can anyone honestly say that this

ed2k: Cannibal.Apocalypse.1980.DVDrip.RoTTeN.avi  [700.00 Mb] [Stats]

is no better than this

ed2k: Cannibal.Apocalypse.avi  [700.05 Mb] [Stats]

[ Add all 2 links to your ed2k client ]

I don't understand the question, those are 2 different rips but what is the difference between them?
A link to the release threads would be helpful

The RoTTeN rip is here.

There are no specs for the other rip, it's from the VN collection. I don't have the rip so I can't post them, but I believe it is a LQ VHS rip.

4:3 after WS release is a nuke under TDX, barring open matte. However, OAR is the definitive version and you get nuked unless you do an internal with another AR.


But it isn't, i have never, ever, ever come anywhere close to seeing a dub that is of the quality of the original track, in terms of recording and professionalism. Find one and then i will understand your claims, but as it is not only do i not agree, i simply don't understand.
The audio recording process is lower quality, the voice work is lower quality standard, the audio is out of sync and it arguably makes it unwatachable, or certainly does for anyone with a low tolerance for crap or of any language other than the dubbed language.

I object that a flaw is disregarded, just because you maybe English.

On top of that the dubs are usually from crap companies like vipco that show no respect for the movie, companies like anchor bay you don't see pulling this crap, they may include dubbed tracks, but only as an addition or at least in most of the cases of their dvds i've ever owned.

Don't quote me, but I'm sure John Saxon disn't speak Italian, so ALL releases of this are dubbed, this is one that falls under the "euro production" banner AFAIK

So no, yours would stay in HQ as far as I know

But what about 4:3 pan/scan where there is no WS rip yet, but there is a WS DVD avaialble. LQ surely?


Still a matter of opinion. I would rather have a lower quality audio that I can understand. I prefer to watch what is happening on the screen, not have to concentrate on watching 2 things at once.


From my own collection, the aforementioned Terror at the Opera, Zombie (Flesh Eaters), City of the Living Dead, New York Ripper ABUS releases, there may be more but I stopped at that point.

Well tdx say there's only a small window for them to be released, which is why they are rare... 4:3 is only allowable in tdx under conditions that no widescreen rip/source has been made, and any 4:3 is a nuke if released after the availability of a WS/OAR rip.


This site doesn't follow tdx or anything, but that's how release groups view it. Same goes for dubs as on the 4:3 thing:



I know fh.org moves dubs to lower quality, always, so i guess enforce that guidelines. They need original language tracks to be classified as higher quality there, but i know for a fact a lot of users there really hate dubs with a passion like me, rogue and pca seem to do.



I'm not sure it is, entirely anyway... its bad sync on the most base level, or rather impossible sync. Its my opinion that technical imperfections should be treated as such. I don't know how people are not tolerant of bad sync where the delay is wrong or it goes out of sync, but then happily watch dubbing where it has the exact same effect. You really think dubbing is of the same quality as an original audio track and not distracting or poorly done in all but the rarest of circumstances?

It is my opinion though, that dubbing is absolutely and completely shit, deplorable and should be discouraged if at all possible. Its based on my intolerance of technical issues that spoil the quality of the movie though, that being lip-sync problems mainly, and then on top of that the fact that the performance value is low.

Why would you view bad sync as a lower quality problem but not bad dubbing? Its essentially the same thing, the audio doesn't match the video... its a technically inferiority a heart, in both cases that need fixing with remuxing of an audio track. The difference is that sync is fixable via running it through nandub with the correct setting, dubbing is unfortunately not and requires the downloading of a proper when it is made available, or to grab audio and to mux it in.

on a side note, i can tolerate dubbing in animated movies and i suspect some other hardened anti-dub people would.

The reason is technical here on one hand. Animation has poor lip-sync to begin with and here dubs aren't as noticable or have such a collosal negative effect on viewing pleasure.

That's on the one hand, but the voicework is mostly truely awful, just terrible... no emotion, no abiliity. no effort... makes it all pointless. i do notice an annoying trend for anime films for the bastards to get crap actors to do the voicework and totally screw up the dialogue That is rather annoying, but that's a movie thing, rather than a technical problem, like sync is.

Bad sync is most definitely a LQ problem, I have seen rips where the audio can be 2 secs or so out, this tends to worsen towards the end of the film and is often caused by copying a VHS to DVD-r via a standalone DVD recorder. It is a technical imperfection, the rip is not of the same quality of the source (meaning the VHS if it has been transferred to DVD-r as an intermediate measure).

I guess I have a higher tolerance for dubbing than the 3 of you that have posted an opinion. Take what PCA said a while back about K-Tel Top of the Pops albums. Hopefully nobody outside the UK or under 30 knows about the pile of shite he is talking about. I bought one expecting to get the latest hits by the Stranglers, Specials, Ian Dury etc and found it was very bad covers by session musicians. They didn't even get the lyrics right. However I don't see the analogy as being the same beause I don't watch films because I am a fan of the actors, not speaking Italian (lets forget Asian films, I am far more likely to watch Italian films) I wouldn't pick up on the nuances of the language anyway.

Some dubbing I really don't think is too bad and this includes a lot of the Italian stuff, the bad ones IMO are the ones where mouths are flapping around like goldfish, sometimes before or after the voiceover stops/starts. I still prefer to watch the dub though. Shogun Assassin is notorious for this but I found Baby Cart at the River Styx much harder to watch trying to keep an eye on the subs when so much is happening on screen. I believe Japanese films are the worst for this, I googled the subject and the impression I got was that senetences are roughly the same length when translated between different European languages (I know nothing about this, but a lot of people here could confirm or deny this) whereas the same is not true of translation between Japanese and English. Funny you mention anime then where I would have expected the sync to be worse.

I would guess by the lack of response from anyone except me, Spud, PC_A and Rogue that no one else on the site is concerned one way or the other so I'm defeated 3-1. I still think it's a case of personal preference though and if 4:3 pan/scan, cuts, credits encoded at a lower bitrate or any other imperfections are allowed in HQ then it should be at the discretion of the ripper. This is an English site as I have said, I would expect rips on a German site to be in German. Nothing xenophobic about that, I'm not saying Speak English or Die (C) SOD. I realise it's Spud's site and rules, I just think this is a matter of personal choice.