completed yesterday, when my new pc arrives i'll be playing through it again to get the other ending (and i'm going to bang the difficultly up from medium to hard).

I'll post a quick post about the thoughts I have on the game; there's a lot of material that you can drill down into I just simply don't have the space or the time so please contribute your own musings if you have any.


I'm very glad i bought this and enjoyed in very much. Its an experience I'd recommend to everyone. Nice atmosphere, great sound design, great gameplay, and some nice art... really nice art. I do have some criticisms too, I'll spoiler them up appropriately as this is a great game and I don't want to spoil it. I would highly recommend the PC version, the 360 version was a lot crappier than the pc version, that's for damn sure but its still good if you don't mind the fact that people will be playing the same game but getting a better experience elsewhere

In terms of system resources, if you have or can hold out until you have a good enough spec pc to play it I would recommend that. I've completed it with an 'underspecced' pc, essentially a AMD64 4000+, GeForce 6800GT and 1GB DDR2. I got stutters (I was playing on high mind) and imo its not as good. Watch a gameplay video on gametrailers.com . If your framerate is preventing you from doing the kind of fun gameplay you see in that, you'll have to compromise your graphics because it makes it a lot better. At first i had a real numbness to this game, as i mentioned, the UI is really detached and i think the mouse aimer has a lot to do with the fact (big loose targetting has the feel of a poorer console game where you don't have the accuracy of a pc game). Its something you get over though, I got into this game.

Now onto the game, its got a really great setting and feel to it. Like System Shock 2 (great game, i'm going to post a copy with some graphics packs and what not when i get chance, like i did with quake), there's a real craftmans ship to the worlds and things like sound design really play up the game. If you've got a decent sound setup, there's a real art to this game. You hear screams, moans and all sorts of freaky shit in the background (freaky germans singing about the lord is an example). Okay, so the bad guys look like... well on the GFW podcast i listened today mentioned a bad guy from Dick Tracey which is hilariously true and there's an unfortunately limited number of enemy models, but they are lovingly crafted.

The concept is really great scifi stock, a failed utopia set in a retro-future, with an array of messed up and deeply disturbed characters and beautifully designed environments that present the (something i'll come back to) illusion of space and openness. Here's where i'll take a bite, spoilers...

Spoiler:

So you "crash" over the ocean only to surface in a blaze of fire... your quickly channelled (this happens a lot, hence my illusion comment) into a light house and from there down into rapture our under water utopia and object of beauty and horror. There's a pretty grand introduction, the propaganda machine of Ryan Industries blares out as you are guided into the belly of the beast. Immediately on arriving you hear from your narrator/insider, Atlas, who for a big part of the game pre-twist channels you through your game to the inevitable 'climax' of meeting Ryan himself. This ultimately turns out to be the big twist of the game and only a midpoint of the game. I've been careful with my words using the word channel, climax and illusion. This game is ultimately about these. One of the first things I noticed when playing the demo was our protagonist has branded tattoes on his arm. I'm of pretty hardened gaming stock and immediately came to the conclusion that the main character had amnesia and we were in for a big twist. This was pretty obvious, it wasn't badly done or anything, its just that this is such standard game cannon that you can pretty much guess the plot to games. I figured he was either a) a prisoner/ejectee from rapture b) he was genetically modified/grown c) he was a soldier programmed and sent in to assasinate ryan. Turns out b and c were about right. I don't think i was really being astute with that though, right? What is revealed, and brilliantly done with that great 'would you kindly?' scene in Ryan's office, is that you are fontaine's child that essentially has been grown, programmed and purposed solely for the destruction of Ryan. You were sent outside of rapture, you hijacked the plane and you crashed it, from then on, Atlas was actually Fontaines guise to get you to do his evil bidding (and he's pretty comic book evil). Atlas' family was made up, and you never actually meet. Its all the manipulation and conditioning, and your character is actually being forced/guided to do things. This very much sums up the game. Despite the initial sense of openness, you are being channeled to kill people, follow a linear path through the game and So that covers the linear nature of the game and how you are being controlled. In many ways this is a real shame preventing a really rich and unique experience. Now onto the player choices, the big one being should you harvest or save the little sisters. It didn't take much choice on my part, I didn't kill a single little sister and even reloaded at the scene where the little sisters are guiding you through the corridoors in a very linear, staged way because one of the little girls died. I've heard that if you kill a few of the girls, then your bad and will be for the entire game and you'll get the 'bad ending'. There were a few places in the game where you had choice, you don't have to kill certain people, you don't have to go and search every area, etc. but in the ultimate assessement, the game is just as linear as say, Half-Life Episode One. Where you do have variation is on how you decide to power yourself up and tackle enemies, there's a lot of traps, explosions, etc. so you can really kill people in creative ways. There's extensive use of ghost scenes and flashbacks, these are very F.E.A.R. which are very Max Payne, which are very System Shock II, etc. Back to the story, now irrespective of how you go about getting adam (this is the substance\genetic material that little sisters harvest from dead bodies, which in turn is turned into eve which gets you and powers your plasmids/implants), the little sisters always help you out after you kill ryan. This is kind of annoying to hear, it really takes a lot out of the game since like your character you have this illusion of choice, openness, etc. when actually your being channelled down a single linear path. Anyway, you then build yourself up as a big daddy so little sisters will follow you around. In terms of what you get, its just a one way path into sound like a big daddy. You get a helmet but the skin is just the same and you still see your jumper when you hold your gun out. A shame really, but anyway. So you make your way through the game and finally get to a very dissapointing boss battle. It doesn't belong in the game, its a very standard boss battle against a super powered fontaine. It seems very rushed and you can't help but think there was a real pressing need to finish the game. Last up was the end fmv. I really thought it was dissapointing, it was actually pretty crap I thought. The little sisters give you control of the city and you surface and let them go. They then grow up a normal life, graduate, get married, etc. and then as you lay dying on your deathbed, they hold your hand and there's a commentary about getting the family you never had. I really thought they could have done better here. I can't believe with so much depth and investment into an artform, the setting, the characters, etc. and they have a crap end of game boss and an ending that doesn't really work. Its almost as if they just had to finish it immediately and whipped it up in a fraction of the time. The other ending apparantly has you surfacing in a submarine/diving bell and then a splicer runs out implying that you've unleashed an evil on the top world and lost your humanity by harvesting the little sisters. Similarly, I don't like it if that's the case. The rest of the game is identical except for the little sisters in the hideout talk about you as the person that hurts them. I dunno, I think an ending say, replace the boss fight with something more suitable to the game then a) turn on the little sisters and join fontaine and become his lacky, running rapture into further ruin b) kill fontaine and become the big bossman; with scenes of riots, murders, bloody rebellions, shock troops, etc. as you sit in your ivory tower c) become the leader and attempt to turn rapture around d) destory rapture and everyone in it including yourself e) run away. I mean those are off the top of my head, but i would have thought any of those would have probably been better than the ending we got. I think the fmv was really cheap too, too short. There's some of the standard silly, silly gaming stuff, like Ryan's personal diaries lying around in a pub or other such stupid things, or the revelation that before rapture fell into darkness there just happened to be dead bodies lying around, etc. Silly stuff. Anyway, I don't want to really hang on the negative... tis because the game is so good that these standard video game moments, that would be fine in most other games, just don't cut it. It would be like having a shit dungeon in zelda, putting it next to such great level design in the other dungeons make the "weak" one appear weak, when really its head, tits, arse and feet above everything else.

In terms of the technical, AI is pretty decent. The spider splicers are pretty impressive since they run all around the 3d space available, crawling around walls and rooftops, and dropping behind you. They also do run away and I noticed them healing themselves to get back their health. I've seen that in a couple of games but not nearly as well done. You get idiots talking about awfully basic scripted AI in say, halo, this is more like the leagues of F.E.A.R. sure its still basic rules, but written very well so the AI is able to pull off some very reasonable enemy behaviour. Really, the spider splicers are the most effective and impressive.

Level design is superb. There was a worry it was going to be all the same, but there are distinct zones that feel very different. The leader of the pack is the brilliant Fort Frolic... its such a brilliant piece of level design. Your running around doing tasks in this great environment. Just great stuff. The other area that stands out as great amongst the great is the big daddy production areas.

The hacking minigames I enjoyed, its a nice break in pace and if you don't power up your skills you'll get a quick frantic bit of puzzle going on. The powerups, character development and the research concept all work great too... i found myself running round frantically to get photographs of the enemy types to get myself powered up against them. Fun stuff that take this game beyond a mere FPS.


Its a great game, but because its a great game that invokes a lot of awe and accomplishes so much for the concept of games as art going through the game it makes you notice some flaws. These are flaws that would have made this game so awesome.


They needed a nintendo attitude towards delays on this one, I can see why it was released now, but i can't help but think with more time they could have made this big, grand and open. The 'illusion' of choice is central to the game, and ultimately its implementation.

Just bought it a couple days ago... only made it through the first chapter so far, but I have high hopes based on what I've seen. Will let you know what I think when I finish.

Minor correction to the above

Spoiler:

You're Ryan's son (with the stripper) not fontaine's, hence the attempt by Ryan to get you to break your mind control

my bad, hazard of copying and pasting. It started as a small post in the quick reply and i ran out of space

err... no i mean it was a test to see if anyone was reading

For those that want a bit more:
There's the bit with the prostitute/stripper if you follow the ghosts round to the back area you can listen to a diary that explains your conception, and using fontaine's blurb you learn that he took you and programmed you. Essentially fontaine paid the stripper to get pregnant, removed the embryo and that's you...

During the best level of the game (imo) that happens.

My take :

It's a good game, but not worthy of the 10/10's etc it's been getting, 8/10 is more realistic.

It absolutely pales in comparison to System Shock 2, as it's not scary at all, but pretty much is a dumbed down remake set underwater

I'm glad it's sold well for Looking Glasses (or whatever they're called now) sake, but to pretend it's a revolution is ridiculous, it's a dumbed down fps, all the rpg content has been removed.

The art and styling however are stunning, the game looks incredible, but I think people are being blinded are by the production values.

I give it a low-end 8 myself

But its refreshing to see a lot of artistry put into a game. IMO system shock 2 was better I wouldn't say its dumbed down at all though, its just different. And System Shock 2 isn't immune from similar criticism, take art craftmanship and level design, both were below the standards of bioshock I'd argue.

As i said, its a real shame that imo, it wasn't "finished":



8/10 sounds right, its getting overrated in the popular press, but they do that. Put then they give halo 10/10 and imo its more like a 4/10 So twice as good as Halo is about right


8/10 deserves a buy that's for sure.

Blasphemy!

Damn, I've been well out of the gaming scene for too long, clicking this & gonna try it on the Sli beasty, thanks for posting spud

Yeah, 8 is about right. It gets repetitive in the long run, and there's a lack of really exciting moments. For example, some spectacular boss fights would have spiced things up. Unfortunately you get only one boss, at the end :-/

Get yourself Half-Life 2: Episode 2 (and HL2 and ep 1 if you've not got em), and the truely excellent Portal.

HL2 is probably still king of FPS, by a long, long way.


@FMsaziri, you know i'm not a big fan of arbitary boss fights. I thought more openess in such a ingenious world would have been the clincher here. Just needed to be more open, allow you to do more... essentially, everything they couldn't implement because imo BioShock was not quite finished, it had room for so many ideas pouring into it but they just had to get it out in the end.

I'm still an old school gamer at heart, so i like a generous sprinkle of bosses (and music, something lacking in Bioshock and many games now, both in terms of quality and quantity). In my opinion depth is already impressive for a FPS, i just needed more variety...
Rushed? definitely, probably even more so on the Xbox 360. It freezed three times (i thought my console was already having overheating problems ) and some strange bugs appear in the last stages...Also, what's the point in making you take shots of enemy for added bonuses when there are only a few types during the game? The camera soon becomes useless.
Bioshock was worth my time, but it didn't change my mind about japanese games being more stylish and better thought out than western ones.

imo, barring Nintendo, japanese games are almost entirely very limited, without vision and complete rehashes. Nintendo are driving themselves down shit creek if they don't start buying up western developers; outside of japan they are doing a shitty job of buying up assets. Japanese studios have the same problem, they churn out the same crap over and over, and just don't seem to be capable of holding a candle next to big Western Developers. The west is currently more influential on gaming styles than the east, and you see a lot of it in games. Resident Evil is the most successful japanese developed western game clone. Nintendo and Clover are the exception, not the rule.

Look at it this way, Western development completely obliterates japan on the basis of pc gaming. Its a sweeping statement but ALL pc games are western, and games like Half-Life 2 japanese developers seem simply incapable of producing.

Japanese games as we know them are a dying breed; square, konami and capcom are becoming more and more western by the release; they either embrace openness and the western game developing scale or they'll die. Just look at Crapcom's efforts, Dead Rising is an example of them trying to make a western game.

Rockstar North, Lionhead Studios, Valve, iD etc.

My favourite game is a japanese game, but generally beyond the odd master-stroke, japanese games are samey, arcadey, pretty piss poor updates of known established games. Popular in japan (there's the whole quirky isolationalist motif), but not as much outside of japan.

So I think Japanese developers, in their current rut, are incapable of producing an experience like Bioshock or HL2; they either have silliness like Final Fantasy (14?) or the odd Metal Gear Solid (4?). The scope of really great japanese games is overstated imo. I think you'll see Konami abandoning their current work ethos in favour of western development views and strategies. As long as they don't loose the workman ship; nintendo games would be shite if they didn't put so many man hours into it and not be afraid to delay the game. imo they should have delayed bioshock for the same reason

Anyway, that's why japanese companies have been buying in big western development figures as advisers; the american and european studios are doing more, japan is falling behind and they are trying to adapt.

Resident Evil is a strange one for a japanese game, but they did a great job there cloning the western game Alone in the Dark.


Then again I find most japanese games to be deeply inferior, and as a pc gamer quite often non-existant. Most of the xbox and playstation lineup is utter trash (on both sides), whilst there's usually a decent enough PC game on the go that would never have come out of japan. Maybe its because i find transient/disposable arcadey type games annoying and I'm not a fan of turn based RPGs? Just find them a bit 1993


I've been looking at the xbox 2 and ps3 since each launched; but have yet seen absolutely nothing worth the money. I've happily paid for a new graphics card for my pc in the same time though, that sums up japan / console / arcade vs pc for me But then its not just about the type of game, its the type of experience and a whole bigger debate.


Short, I definitely disagree with "more stylish" and definitely not "better thought out"; in fact i think both are completely the opposite... its not so much stylish as unoriginal or at least very well trodden/ identifiable and more man hours put into a concept that's already been done.

There's that whole work ethos of sleeping at work over there, but they are usually working on the same thing.


I sense for bioshock, m$ was doing some measure pressuring to get the thing out.



All the big games I was/am looking out for are not only western games, but games that japan is incapable of producing:
BioShock
Mass Effect
Fable 2 * Could be shit, but lionhead games always have so much thought and appeal
Empire: Total War
HL2: Ep 2 + portal (which was a brilliant surprise, much better than i was expecting)
GTA IV
Crysis
Spore
and some lesser known european games.

vs

Super Mario Galaxy
Super Smash Bros.
Resident Evil 5

There's more but i can't recall em at the moment; so i'm siding with european/us/australian developers.


There's a second hand shop that's offering £180 for second hand wiis, i'm thinking of selling mine. I would do if not for mario galaxy and smash bros, more the former than the latter.

Really? They outsold Microsoft in less than one year mostly thanks to *one* game (Wii Sports, a very simple, western-depth free, too), and you reallythink they need to start buying up all those western developers? Besides, if they do, (Rare in the past, Retro Studios now), it’s not without some tight supervision from Miyamoto and co., which means that basically, even so, we would look at some very strong japanese influence, rather than the opposite.



This is a common criticism towards Japan; “they copy us”. While this is true (sometimes yes, sometimes no), i would also say that Japanese don’t stop there, but simply tweak the originals to perfection, and that’s no little feat. Now tell me that stuff like Cold Fear and Alone in The Dark sequels achieved the same quality seen in Resident Evil 4...
Besides, aren't Splinter Cell and Hitman children of Metal Gear Solid? It's no biggie, they copy each other as soon as possible.
And i can’t see all these games borrowing from “us”, btw.
Well, maybe Coded Arms on the PSP.



Japanese developer don’t really care about pc market, and never have (this probably explains Capcom becoming “Crapcom” on Windows). They are not experienced in
FPS, etc and they don’t have to be. Gamers from the rising sun don’t give a rat ass about FPS and RTS, and japanese companies are heavily focused on sales in their country. Just take a look at Xbox/Xbox 360 lineup: games from Japan are a minority even if both consoles have been successful in the west. No surprise to see the same applying to pc gaming. Which, by the way, is not popular as it used to be:
http://www.gamershell.com/articles/884.html
(Ok, maybe saying that “pc gaming is dying” is going a bit too far though.)



Yeah sure, tell that to those millions people slobbering for the next FF or MG . And i don’t see anything getting more western, especially from Square Enix, tons of typical “Squarish” RPG are coming out in the next months. Yes, Japanese games'll get more western, and Japan national food will be pasta & hamburgers really soon. There's a big difference in culture that'll prevent any similar changes to happen.
About Dead Rising, i guess you’re hinting to similarities to GTA series, but as a matter of fact, we could say that the game borrows a lot from Resident Evil/Dynasty Warriors too...



good point!



Partially agree with you. "Pretty piss poor updates of known estabilished games" sounds a little too harsh to my ears (and americans/europeans are soooo much better at this...Tomb Raider, Ratchet and Clank to name a few), but i could do without the umpteenth Devil May Cry (altough professionaly produced) sequel.
Regarding the popularity of japanese titles outside japan, i think that my friends, (casual gamers, the “masses”, so to speak...sorry guys) are very likely to give me a puzzled look when i talk about Bioshock while being aware instead of the recently released new Silent Hill episode.


See the beginning of my post.



Uh, no. Only because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s crap. Yes there’s a lot of trash, but lots of good stuff too. We’re not talking about “Ninjabread man” or some hideous Spongebob tie in here, right?



It would be long and boring to tell you about all my hardware/software issues related to pc gaming,
so to keep it short: I bought a new computer not even two years ago complete with an expensive Geforce, and some good hardware to go by...and guess what? it’s already obsolete for Bioshock. I tried the demo and it just took a few splicers screaming around on fire for the game to stutter horribly, making me lose control of where i was going. End of story, i was dead and looking at a nice, well rendered ceiling after a few seconds.
Now, i have bought a Xbox 360 for 350 euro including Bioshock, aware that it will last for 3/4 other years of guaranted smooth frame rate without .dll missing, hardware incompatibility and shit like that, enjoying the same pc titles and more.



Spot on.



Sorry, my fault, i wasn’t clear enough and maybe a little off topic. For stylish i mean: more oomph, variety in the artistic department and atmosphere/settings, instead of the beautiful but (to me) ohhh so boring always realistic graphics obsession which makes pc games all look the same.
Another area lacking in western games, character design. That’s one reason why they are unpopular in Japan, and i suspect even often outside. Many gamers want likeable characters they can relate too, but, let’s be honest, western character design feel a little anonymous. Link, Dante, Snake, all cool heroes for the gaming community. Let’s see our counterparts: ..Sam Fisher? Lara Croft? Hitman? Oh please. They can’t even touch one percent of the same popularity enjoyed by Mario and company.
For better thought out, i was pointing specifically to games like Zelda Twilight princess, masterpieces honed to perfection (well except *that bug*, ok). It is undoubtedly the best action/rpg ever created. And you don’t need to visit some forum or download some patch because developers are testing the game using you as a guinea pig. If i can add one more thing, Windows too is full of crappy rehashes, a thousand fps that no one asked for. Crysis itself will probably be a great game, ok, but from the previews it looks just like another first person shooter.

One final thought, don’t give away your Wii yet, you’re not expecting a console to shower you with classics in its first humble year of life do you?
All consoles have suffered from the same old syndrome, only a few great games available in the first year (if any). And now that games are getting more and more complex, we're left to wait even two years or more for the big titles. Anyway, i always thought that Nintendo consoles would be worth it even for just two games a year skillfully crafted by the big N.

Sales != quality ; its cheap, appeals to a big market and doesn't offer games like the other two consoles do (neither of which have succeeded in showing me a good game I want I can't already get)... in fact, its more arcadey games and this is the biggest turn off possible for me.

There will be a backlash and nintendo is going more and more towards "none games", reallocating their internal development teams to less 'epic games'; less towards bulking up their core gaming routes. Its a shame, and it will cost them. They should be using their new found wealth to buy up and train up western developers, they are doing the same in Japan but taking the opportunity to break away from the formuliac wouldn't be a bad thing for their future.

I want nintendo games like mario and zelda if i'm going to invest; not big brain academy, nintendodogs, etc. I fear we are going to see less of the former and more of the latter, which is why it is wise for nintendo to buy up developers not reallocate them like they are doing.

IBM did a great thing in the 70s when they gave IBM servers to universities for free; they made a generation of computer programmers that only knew ibm mainframes. Nintendo should be doing the same in the West; but microsoft is doing the most here.



My comment was that the west is currently more influential, it sounded like you agreed right? What i'm saying is that Western games are coming up with more new ideas; they just need to take the japanese work ethos of spending more time on them and being more flexible with the budgets and deadlines, not adapt arguably substandard character design, artwork and limit the openness and gameplay dynamic of their games.

As far as, RE comments:
Resident Evil 1 == Alone in the Dark

Capcom had more money than Infogrames, a f*ck tonne more and the analogy is pretty poor. Capcom could afford to spend more time on the sequels because of the headway they had made in the early ninties/late eighties; something I hope western developers will be given increasing freedom to do by their publishers. I suspect in the case of bioshock microsoft was doing some pressuring.

Resident Evil 4 was a influenced title, ideas came from a plethora of more modern action games from the west and this was given to a top notch development team; not an Alone in the Dark. Its a good job they did, because it would have been as crappy as Resident Evil 0 if they didn't. RE5 looks even less like a japanese game and that's a good thing imo; its a game targeted at westerners, designed from western gameplay styling, just like RE has always been. That's what they need to be doing more of; probably drop some of the stupid japanese quirks a bit more though... i think they really need to if the next title is going to be as controversial as i think. I'd hope they'd be assigning some of the western ex-developer consultants they picked up at capcom (forget some of their names, they were mentioned on 1up a while back when they were talking about this very subject of japan evolving to meet western design ethos).

I'm not going to comment on MGS much because I've always thought it was a shitty game and it wouldn't be fair but it is much more japanesey than RE. Much, much more. That's probably why I hate MGS and love RE come to think of it.



Korea and the big asain markets do; Blizzard is the biz over there.



This is my whole point, they are becoming and less and less focused on their country which is why they are bringing in outside assets. They see it s a global market and Nintendo is remaining blissfully ignorant to this in their approach and it pains me because as far as japanese devs go; they are the only ones that imo put out consistantly good games. The only ones imo.



That's pretty ignorant to the fact that consoles are becoming more like PCs, not the other way round. Its rising production costs that are devaluing console exclusives; rising to a neutral platform format that will be more of an entertainment hub; aka. a pc.

The most profitable game to date is a PC game; World of Warcraft.
The Sims is another game you might want to look at sales for.



Elephant vs gnatt in terms of influence. Its not GTA, its western action games in general. They even quoted it as an attempt to appeal to western audiences if you dig up any developer interview on the game.



Look at the corporate structures, greenlit projects and do some reading. Western developers are being brought in by japanese developers, and projects like Resident Evil 4 is just an indication of how big the western influence is becoming; the games are becoming more open and accessible. GTAIV is a big project a lot of top executives are looking at. Do some digging around 1up.com and some of their articles, i find they have some very good points on the ins and outs of gaming (and they have some great podcasts, subscribe to 1up yours and GFW [hilarious ]).****

No offense to your friend or anything, i have a friend that doesn't play anything but pc games (action, shoot em ups, etc.) but I wouldn't quote him as a source of the "masses" just as i wouldn't quote the sony fanboy that sits across from me at work (although he plays more of his xbox these days). If you honestly quoted "the masses" in the uk they'd all say pro-evolution football is the best game ever made and silent hill would be a movie they made a game from.



uh, no. now come on, lets be honest. Print out a list of titles for all platforms; particularly the psx you'll see that for every good game there's about 100 pieces of shit. Cheap games, low value... its why there's a desert with thousands of copies of ET buried under it. The wii has the biggest shitty lineup I can recall to be honest, there's so much 1 star trash on it its quite flabbeghsting, PSXs lineup was shite too and it was intermittent on the quality. Its the nature of shovelware.



Shame its slowed down and plays like Milk Float Racer '93 You might get a more stable game, that's scaled back. But its scaled back, that's why its more stable. One thing pc games have always had is openness, creative license and the ability to just tap away more at the ideas. IMO one of the most appealing things about consoles at the moment is the WiiWare/Xbox Live potential of smaller pc like games being focused on. Independant studios have always had better ideas; it goes back to the days of homebrew development.

As for the selective pc story; Not my fault your pc sucks (sorry ) but i don't see how it tarnishes pc gaming? i get so bored of the my pc sucks, therefore pcs suck. Mine doesn't, and it really didn't take me long to make it not suck.

I've even got vista (aka. BSOD generator to some) on there and the games i've been playing have been stable on full specs. My old pc struggled with bioshock, but then it was an old graphics card and that's simply because, like always, PC games look better because its better hardware. There's also the fact its not just for gaming, which is where the 'stablity' issue comes in. As long as you know what your doing its not that big an issue, not one to relegate pc gaming to anything other than better if you don't like arcade games (like me).

But the big thing is, you get a better gaming setup; keyboard and mouse just pwns for the games i'm playing (scroll down, i think it will explain it better).

Next the "well i don't want to sit infront of my pc, i want to sit back on my comfy sofa" line, and then after that... "yo momma". Done all this before, so we can safely jump ahead

I'm not going to bother arguing that point overly because it isn't a point if you know how to achieve a decent rig. Sure there's the odd Ultima IX (lol, that one was a bugfest), but generally I've had a couple of crashes over the past two years in games. BioShock was one of them



I'd argue the bold bit very adamently and its my main point I was making. I'm sorry again, but Final Fantasy doesn't look like Final Fantasy 1-10, and it doesn't look like any other Square game? Big breast, small skirt... main guy must carry big sword... check. Pack of four characters... check. Stop wait your turn. Check. If you like anime, furries or robots then your going to think that but I really can't find examples where its exceptional. Clover were a great little team, nintendo does some beautiful stuff. I think variety just isn't there any more than the west (infact imo, its less); its why a lot of people dispise anime... then akira is a masterpiece, but that's just one film

I'd argue, no, they don't have more oomph unless your into that very selective subset of art and character design and aren't sick of it already, and I'm afraid I'm in a different subset that's been really sick of it for about 10 years now Environments once again I've pulled a blank and would need examples to concur with you. Can't count the number of robots I've seen in japanese games though!

Mario is novel and unique, or he was. Its a great platformer, even if his outing after Mario 64 have been deeply dissapointing. They should have retired him until Galaxy; which looks stunning and really fun. They've been polishing that one since Mario 64. The code nintendo throw away is better than most japanese companies, in fact most companies full stop can produce. They should release mario 128 demo on wiiware btw.

I'm a big zelda fan. Zelda 3 is better than Twilight Princess though . Zelda OoT had much more impact than Zelda Twilight Princess. I loved TP, it was possibly the best game of last year... but i had played very similar games before in OoT, MM, and WW.

Its really ironic that I'm having to be the nintendo-nay-sayer; its usually me arguing the virtues of nintendo over microsoft/bungie/rare/etc. But i'd be lying and ignorant if I didn't admit to their flaws.

I'm glad they out sourced Metroid to an american company, but honestly, I've never liked metroid and hated the gamecube games.



If it wasn't for mario galaxy i'd get rid of it right now. Its value is nothing. There are NO good games you can't get on the gamecube. Twilight Princess is pretty much the same, aiming with the wiimote is fun and the wii version is slightly better, but not that much. Same goes for RE4. That's it. Everything else is not worth the money; either quirky disposable non-games, party games, rehashes or children's games. If i didn't get it for essentially nothing i'd not have bothered buying one.

So no, I don't expect a shower of games, but i expect a good game available (I did play twilight princess before the wii was out btw ). I got rid of my shitty PS2 for less; what a waste of money that was... crappy beat em ups (I HATE BEAT EM UPs!!!!), some poor japanese games... a sequel to a game I loathed (MGS2) and then, the only game worth buying after a year and a bit was GTA3 and guess what? It was better on the PC, which will be the same for GTAIV



I hope you know i dispise all the games you just listed and would put Solid Snake on the end of populist, inferior tripe. But then why are stuck with shitty console games anyway?


On another note, I hope you know that your arguing the virtues of Nintendo against someone who's been labelled a nintendo fanboy; had a zelda signature for nearly a year and signed up with a picture of a goomba? Even I know, as a nintendo 'fanboy' that the only thing worth playing on a nintendo console these days is almost always nintendo 1st party games; and with them turning to shitty non-games which have zero appeal to me they aren't doing much to keep me. I also know that making out as though every japanese company is even close to the quality of nintendo is an out and out fabrication. They are the exception, as I previously elluded to.


I guess the point I'm getting at is; I agree a Japanese developer would have made bioshock better gameplay polish-wise purely because they'd put more time in; I completely disagree that their art design would have been as well defined and unique, I completely disagree that they would be capable of making a game like this, I completely disagree they would have been able to make a story like this, and I compeletely disagree that given that they'd been handed all the assets they wouldn't have gone to one of their clichés... stuck big robots in there, had some retarded storyline and called the 'bad guy' Snakey Liquidslurp.

Spud just set you up the bomb.


I think it all comes down to:
I hate Sports games
I hate Racing games (i like driving games)
I hate pretentious RPGs (and most turn based rpgs with stupid storylines)
I usually don't play puzzle games
I don't mind platformers

I love Adventure games
I love Action-Adventure games
I love involved shooters

I have completely grown out of disposable games, I'm kind of wanting the game to be memorable and have last an impression so am less inclined to play contra but more inclined to play something with a story arc, a bit of awe-inspiring artistry and a bit of a lasting impression.

I think that's why i've grown out of the consoles, and have absolutely zero interest in the arcades


I think i'm going to post some lists of companies, and some games when i have time to collate it to try and counter the whole "japan t3h b3st", it will at least downplay the modern impact they are having. More than that though I hope it will be an alternative history of gaming with a bit of an emphasis on innovation, artistry and unique nature. Traditionally so much came out of japan after the american market crashed (when atari ruled), it was saved from ruin. However, the significance of japanese games (if not consoles) is very up in the air atm.

The console trivialities have always been below the feet of pc gamers though really, and i did come up through the amiga.


*** hmmm could have done with some links here, but i cannibe arsed captain. I troll 1up.com for the takes on news; i also regularly use gamesindustry.biz and gamepolitics.com for news; I find the topics interesting, even though i have no active investment or appeal to the actual set of games on any of the consoles really; beyond a couple of nintendo games that is.

My 2 pence:

FPS is a western thing that realistically began with doom, quake & unreal (I think).
Resi evil kind of scary horror with poorer controls began in Japan.

Japan has always been more centred around RPG & cutesy games like final fantasy, sonic etc. Blizzard are behind many of the RPGs.

Its unfair to say the japs are copying us as I suspect its more likely that the japs have progressed from having played these different genre games than theyre used to playing.

Hollywood is the thief as far as I can see as theyve more money than brains hence all the poor rip-offs of the japanese original films, next they'll be remaking FF games.

I'm hinting more at; who's driving games forward today, really?

Hardware first:
Nintendo is opening up the market to more people, but the games they are doing it was to me are trash and not really appealing. So Nintendo are, but its going in the wrong direction for me.

IMO sony isn't. Their games don't seem any different to that of the last generation; its all the same stuff. Its worrying but a company that's as questionable as sony; root toolkits, anti-consumer features, etc. it might just be karma

Microsoft kind of are. They are driving the console towards being a pc (good thing), and there's a lot of interesting developments in there software divisions. I've been hearing of them buying up developers and their lineup is much stronger than sonys.

PC gaming is always evolving, it has been for decades and will be for decades more. It looks much more favourable from what I've seen, there's no slow down, big projects are going. As I mentioned earlier, all of the above is below pc's feet really, although it effects the lineup when games are dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.


One thing is clear to me though; the pc is suffering by having its games designed for shitty controller scheme and limited hardware. Take the brilliant Deus Ex and look what they did with the sequel by making it for the console... yuck! That was the most fustrating thing to see happen. BioShock suffered too imo.


As far as the whole western thing goes; the exception i took was to this:

I just can't see the evidence to support that in a modern context; to the contrary, I find its increasingly the opposite. Its very singular shaped (cutesy might be right although I'd take exception to it on one level because its like saying nintendo is kiddy which annoys me, but its more anime / japanese quirk) and not so varied. Lack of variety annoys me quite a bit in gaming. I used to play everything, but a couple of years back I just thought f*ck it and won't play shit anymore. I had a "bah!" pile for a while, where i'd just discard the latest games that failed to offer something memorable and new.

Uniqueness, openness and originality is greatly in the hands of western developers by what i've seen coming; Japanese games are usually more polished due to the money those big developers / publishers have. Nintendo just delays and delays their projects; I think 3d realms might have taken their policy too far though!


Oh, people please go and play portal... its truely excellent! That's what i was meaning about independant developers (albeit ones that got bought up by Valve... nintendo should have bought they guys!)


oh bads, you brought up another bug bare of mine ( )... god damn sega. What a shitty company they are with such a great inflated sense of propose... I can't stand any of their games which is why I'm so utterly amazed at their status! Once again, I think its arcade games... all their games are arcade games and I just don't like em. grrrr... crazy taxi indeed!

So what? At the same time, they are deeply in love with japanese games,
and as far as i know, they couldn't care less about FPS and Age of Empires-like stuff. What they do play, however, are many MMORPGs that still look and feel really close to classic japanese RPGs.



A truly deep, insightful analysis of more than 20 years worth of FF design.
I'm no big Final Fantasy fan, even if i'm playing X right now, however, just wanted to tell you remind me of my granny sneering at the Simpsons and calling them "puppets". She was around 80, though.



Sorry, but not all people should be forced into geeky hardware adventures,
being pissed by the latest graphics cards not being compatible with their motherboard, having to wait for someone else to install additional hardware because you don't know shit about AGP or PCI Express. It may sound incredible to you, but most gamers want to play STRAIGHT AWAY from the beginning. YOUR pc will soon start to go downhill again, and i don't mind if mine "sucks". Hell no, my next pc will "suck" again at big complex games, i won't waste more money on time, assistance and pricey video cards only to play something available on a console sitting under my tv. And regarding the old boring "mouse and keyboard controls feel better", you do get used to a joypad after a while. I don't miss any mouse sorry; instead, i'm pretty sure we'll see some kind of souped up Wii like controls in the future for each and every new console. Now *that* would make the differnce.



Look below for a quick and dirty collage of various jap games.
Do they look all the same and feel all the same to you? Can games from the west claim to sport such variety? From cartoon looking to photo realistic, from cel shaded 3d to 2d style? I don't think so.
Oh, and i felt free to add in the mix a screen shot depicting the missing element from your 99% stereotypical, ancient view of jap games/anime. Ninjas.

I'm not really bashing western gaming, Mass Effect is in my buy list too, but you can't deny they aren't exactly taking big risks in displaying new graphical visions. Tell me, how many have the guts to look different like Okami (glad to see you mentioned Clover, but it doesn't stop there), Rez or Katamary Damacy? There's more to art than copying/ simulating reality...or (talking on a bigger scale of course) masters like Kandinsky or Picasso would have never have existed in the first place.

I forgot:


Great! Game companies and the gaming community can't live off the back of ONE game for eternity, though. Just like that article pointed out, console games sell much, much more copies than Windows ones.

And. There'll always be a market for simple games like Wii Sports, as a long as there will be people asking for immediate fun and multiplayer. Not everyone wants to sit through a session of some complex RPG after a tough day at work, especially with only a little spare time left on their hands. Children too, are a big slice of the market which need more relaxing and easy to pick up games. Do you think that Spore and Oblivion could be suitable for an 8 year old??

An interesting Ken Levine (creative director of Irrational Games) interview on Bioshock endings, with some hints about the franchising future...

http://kotaku.com/gaming/giant-ken-levi ... 307387.php

Unfortunately i'm giving you reasons to be happy, Spud

bugger, i lost my reply when mozilla crashed out (alt-tabs the devil)



Wrong there, for example:
Starcraft




I'm most likely younger than you, and it has nothing to do with ageism. It has to do with originality and the MODERN significance of japanese gameplay, influences and the way the gaming market is going.



way to fulfil the prophecy of "i just want to sit on my coach" style argument.

Your pc sucks, it doesn't mean pc gaming sucks. its the same old naive crap that self excludes you from some of the best games ever made.

I own a wii so i know that its utter, utter bollocks to compare a light gun with accelatometer to a mouse/keyboard setup. That's just retarded, you only have to play on the wii to know its delusional.

Sure the bow and arrow segments of zelda were better than the gamecube, and RE4 re-release was an improvement; but your hardly being credible to me (as a wii owner) to suggest the level of control is ANYWHERE near a keyboard and mouse in terms of control and accuracy. Haven't played Metroid yet but I'm thoroughly prepared for utter dissapointment and the game to be out and out overrated. the fact that the art design has never appealed (and i'm not sure i can blame Retro studios for that one) isn't helping me.

The line about STRAIGHT AWAY resulted in a ; so clicking steam and double clicking a game is too much for you?



Where they are stripping out assets, control, and gameplay to get it to work around a pad. And don't tell me they aren't doing it; look at what they did to Deus Ex 2, or Bioshock and tell me console gaming isn't having a negative impact on the scope and design of games. its a crying shame really, but its where the money not where the quality is. Thankfully there's always developers that will prize quality and design over this and not limit their scope.



No, i'm sorry but it won't go downhill. That's a deceptive and misleading. Games will get better and I will have to play them on lower and lower settings, but at this point my pc is churning out high resolution graphics; i have more processing power than the consoles, I have more features than the consoles and i have better controls for the games I enjoy (non-arcade). Deal with it please; pc games look better and run better because there's no top cap on any hardware like there is with a set skew console.

In two years times games on the PC will look light years beyond what the consoles are capable of, and if I want to play them on full settings I will have to upgrade; but that's the nature of PC gaming... bigger, better, faster, innovative, varied and experiences that you can't get on the console. Your only experiencing at most half of what gaming has to offer if your ignorant to shut yourself off from the PC. I'm sorry but its true; if i shut myself off from the consoles, which is something I just won't do because I'm a GAMING fan, not a PC fan. The ultimate reaosning here is that pc games offer me a much more varied and better experience since I don't like crippled controls, slower games or the technical limitations offered by console ports. At the same time I'm not going to shut myself off from games like Resident Evil which are unfortunately due to the stubbornness of Capcom console only titles (shitty ports aren't acceptable for me, like the monstrously bad ubisoft port of RE4).



Just like if you were missing an eye or an arm, sure... but why dumb yourself down when your pursuing the best experience? I'm sick of giving the same boring answer; I want the best experience, why am I being told that's stupid and to make do with mediocrity in comparison? It's baffling that people are so instistant that getting "used to" it makes it any less inferior?



Here's where my post had a big list of screens i used the firefox imageshack plugin to right click and upload in a minute. Luckily it saves the list. These are from one page of the top hit of upcoming pc games in 2008... this is JUST pc games, JUST known ones and JUST next year, but you'll be able to find your own for the consoles from western companies. I'm even going to help you out by grouping by genre See if you can spot if a japanese game has crept in








































































On the same page there was a stand out japanese game:

Stands out just like the other japanese games over the page in the same thread.




And neither are any of the japanese games you've presented!! Mass Effect is taking a bigger financial risk that pokemon because it will cost them more to produce quality graphics. Style wise its cheaper to cel shade than it is to go to photo realism; but there's just as stylish games in the west as there is in the easy. Personally I can tell a lionhead studio games from a valve from a crytek from a nintendo; and its not just the damn graphics. You have to remember, gaming is about story, character, art direction, and most of all gameplay; and to claim Japan has it better than the west is just insane to my ears. All they have is a more identifiable and embedded style, some might even call that tired and samey just as much as new and innovative. They have been doing it in the same style for 20 years for the most part so you've got to see its a valid criticism.


This can go on at nausea; but to me its pretty clear that Japanese games only appear polished because they put a lot more time into the production title and that's largely around the japanese work ethos, not because they are any more talented. Art design and style wise I think its utter rubish to suggest they have more style; they have a more recognisable style just like anime, but its not preferable to everyone to have the same character designs and traits across major companies... and to suggest that they offer this as a point of superiority is baffling to me as a gaming fan; Europe are distinct from America (hell france is distinct from the uk, which is distinct from eastern block indie developers), Australia is distinct from europe and America, and most of all the west is more varied than the east. There's always exceptions, but to suggest japan isn't learning and adapting their games to the western market, and companies like capcom are making more western games is like saying sony and microsoft don't take ideas from nintendo. Its gibberish, they are. Why wouldn't you take what works? And they do take what works.





One final thought, What's the worst part of all this is? Personally, I've not really found PC Gamers that are ignorant to console games (although i know of some that can't find justification for buying a machine purely for games and therefore don't play consoles), but I've sure as hell found console gamers that are bitterly ignorant to the virtues of PC gaming. That's where this halo shite comes from