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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:56 pm  Post subject: What's the next big thing?
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Hello,

I've been p2ping for a long time... I remember how proud I was of the whole napster ban (f*ck you metallica, one registry hack later and i was sharing all your crappy sellout albums :lol: ), edonkey/emule, bit torrent... as well as more 'server/client' style single p2p networks like winmx, direct connect, etc.

In my mind there are two current p2p networks of viable size and support; emule/ed2k and Bit Torrent. Both have great similarities, they both have community sites based around the posting of verified hashes by users (ed2k has greater advantage of not being tied into one particular server of acquisition and the fact it is a simple text hash over a file, whilst bt has initial bootstrap gains from stating the tracker you must get it from.), although in my experience there's a lot more detail and quality associated with ed2k posts (fileheaven, etc. style verification)... maybe due to the much slower speeds of acquisition). There's also a similar hash and queue system, although bit torrents is much smaller which is why its speeds are far greater.

I prefer emule myself.... it is big, it is open, and it was revolutionary in its content/hash tracking. I love the community sites that sprang up from them, and have been involved in running several. However, I am aware of its age and from that age its inherant flaws, it is only a viable client if you leave it on a fast conneciton 24/7 and even then its speeds are off putting. edonkey was built around traditional connection speeds, and obviously its queuing mechanism is flawed because of it; its huge queues and overly large chunk sizes mean that it is, as the name suggests, slow and steady. In a modern era of fast connections, smaller chunks and smaller queues would be infinitely more beneficial as it vastly increases download time. This is the main benefit of the BT network, although there are scores of negatives, speed is greater. KAD has come along to combat the weakness of the emule network structure, although it does not address the flaws enough.

Torrent is much touted as the "best, coolest kid" on the block, it is indeed faster but it is deeply flawed and deeply insecure. The whole tracker problem ties you into what can only be described as a security nightmare; when one of these sites pops off the face of the planet and into an anti-piracy agencies mits they have a damning list of information, times, dates, ips, shared files, initial uploader, detailed share information, etc. all in clear text. The tracker mechanism is a curse much more than a blessing, and DHT adoption is hindered by "privacy"/clubs. Whilst ed2k is a wide open network, bit torrent is a splintered network by the tracker system. DHT has been a failure because of the splintering of the network, and its something that the creator and many observers continually criticise. Rightly so in my opinion. Its superiority in technology over ed2k comes from its smaller chunk sizes and tiny queues; you start downloading quicker. It is much more a single download at high speed than a volume network.

I myself, do not use torrent anymore, I have found that newsgroups and emule provide a better rate of consumption than emule and BT, or BT on its own. However, I am looking for a network that attacks the flaws of these two networks.

All networks suffer from the same flaws; upload is weak across all networks. This is largely a flaw created by the telephone companies and will continue to exist for a long time. This means that in an open network you are going to be let down by the fact that ultimately, nearly every peer can take out much more than they can put in. Ratios improved matters, but not by much. Splintering a network seems to help, but at the cost of availability and retention, and this is too big a cost. Trading and profiteering needs to die, and the splintering of a network is a risk to this.

I doubt any of this is revolutionary, and there's probably points of exception (please pick at them if you wish, my intention is only to highlight huge gaping holes :) ), however my real questions are the following:
  • What are the viable up and coming P2P projects that attack the risks of the big two above?
    I believe security is going to be a big thing in the future, a tracker based network can't really viably persist. Similarly with recent attacks on emule servers, the open server model isn't looking bright either. So what is out there? I believe that hashing is an absolute necessity and the only way a network can exist now, communities increase the quality and quantity of content... they are a point of attack for negative forces, but they are an absolute necessity.
  • Ultimately how do you see the flaws of BT being corrected to make it a more viable network?
  • Do you believe it would be in emule's best interests to redesign their core protocol and roll out a new network in their emule client to ween users from the older protocol? In my mind this has never once worked and just splinters and dies, for example with overnet (which in actuality was not a particularly revolutionary redesign).

:shadey:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:39 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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where did the responses to this go??

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:54 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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I think spuds host lost some database. :prat:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:54 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:29 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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:o :o :o :suicide:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:10 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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i think the cock's kill -9'd mysql, as the posts table was corrupted with duplicate ids. As such about 3-5 posts are probably missing which is a real bugger. I do have script that runs every 3am then moves a backup offshore so they maybe in there.

anything big? i don't remember many responses here, at fh there's a fair number and a lot of banter.

They messed up a data migration, and left the vps turned off and none of our sites up... at the worst possible time (I finish work next friday). I've asked them to actually manage the migration now and check everything is ticking over.

I'm going to run some python scripts to check the site uptime and notify me of any problems.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:16 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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AAAAAA@@**^!!!

I typed over 300 words :suicide:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:38 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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Geezus wrote:
AAAAAA@@**^!!!

I typed over 300 words :suicide:


I remember your post! But sadly I didn't save it. Though
by chance, I did save mine:

----------------------------

I mainly use torrents but also try to limit myself on the amount that I download
to try and keep a decent ratio on a few selected sites. The speed of torrents (for
the most part) is just too attractive to ignore. Most of the sites that I belong to
will give incentives to keep your ration acceptable (CG for instance has a lottery
system you can enter to win credits). I heavily rely on TVTORRENTS to grab shows
that I may have missed or someone recommended to me.

That being said, I'll still fire up emule due entirely to this site. As long as there are
old movies that I get curious about (and there are plenty of them) I'll use emule despite
the slow DL speeds. The retention rate is amazing.

As for anonymity, I guess we all should start paying attention to it. Pressure seems
to be increasing if I am to believe what I read in the news. So far my provider hasn't
set any caps on monthly transfer quotas. I guess I will enjoy that while it lasts.

I used to enjoy free usenet groups through Time Warner until they pulled them
completely. Frankly, I'm just not that interested in paying for them. My cable
bill is enormous enough and I still have the above options to rely on.

I hope the 'scene' continues to evolve. I think the people who created all these
networks are geniuses and I applaud their collective efforts. I remember when
privately run FTP sites used to be these awesome repositories of programs and
music. Maybe they still are? I haven't searched for them in quite some time.

Anyway, I guess the next big thing will be dictated either by what the community
is clambering for or the rules that foolish governments/corporations are trying to
impose. All I know is, there is always a way. :wink:

------------------

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:02 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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Geezus wrote:
AAAAAA@@**^!!!

I typed over 300 words :suicide:


That's why didn't read it. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:52 am  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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Did I post? Maybe I was drunk :lol: Bet it was great though. :moon:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:00 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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you guys overhyped yourselves:
Geezus wrote:
Well, if everybody is too busy I guess I'll have to reply then.

For a start, I find you're rather understating the fact that ed2k is dying. :cry:

There.
Discussion enflamed.

Most of us "senior members" have moved on to newsgroups or private trackers, probably launching the mule (capped probably :matrix: ) for sentimental value , just to grab the odd quality release they can't get elsewhere.
Indeed how many not have moved on completely and left ed2k for good ?
We've had lots of posters over the years. I'll be damned if they all left due to real-life issues.

I do not see KAD or any new feature revitalize ed2k.
The current mule clients would have to be rewritten from the ground up so drastically, that you'd really end up with something completely new.

I think torrents as they stand today will be around for quite a few years to come (say, 3 at least) albeit with all kinds of strapped on "security features" . None of them being bulletproof, I forsee, which might ultimately lead to this possible " next big thing" ; Some new "serverless" torrent protocol.
No I don't know how it will work exactly :P

Anonymity is gonna be a huge factor in nex gen p2p clients. Maybe even the dominant.
I need not remind you of this scary treaty recently being signed by just about every friggin nation to combat "illegal" filesharing.

You will see Isp's being forced by goverments to cooperate in any way the local anti-piracy asks them to more frequently. Expect legislation to be passed rather sooner than later now.
Especially if you have one of George bush's poodles as your prime minister.

As soon as that happens , Usenet will come under serious attack as well.

It's the old legal cat & mouse game. But the cat is finally starting to corner the mouse.
It needs new tricks to keep ahead of the terminology of any new legislation.

- Evolve or die - if you must call it that way.

Now there's all kinds of obscure and experimental p2p networks around already.

Check out http://www.anonymous-p2p.org/programs.html

I myself tried out some of the japanese ones like winny and ShareEX/NT last summer.
Serverless , based around "clusterization" , read more of it @ that link above

Sadly, I couldn't find shit on them, since not just all files but also Cluster-search-terms were in japanese characters.
Speed wasn't too hot either for the few random files I did manage to find.

And this is why I see no future for ed2k.
Implementing anonimity will cost you at least some speed. Torrent has loads to spare.
Ed2k doesn't.
Well, not comform people's demands these days it does.

Let's see where this goes.


PC_Arcade wrote:
I removed my ed2k machine from the network a few days ago, I finished the last thing I was getting and won't be getting any more. I've also pretty much deleted all the SD movies I downloaded, although that's due to getting an HD telly and rips looking pretty horrible IMHO

I can't see much future for p2p to be honest, as more and more ISP's cripple downloads with caps and limit the uploads to stupidly low amounts it's just not feasible anymore when combined with scum organisations like Davenport Lyons actively suing anyone who downloads any shitty PC game from the 'mule or torrents it's just not worth the hassle. I've become slightly paranoid over the fact that I can be caught easily on ed2k / torrents and now use newsgroups exclusively.

That combined with RL issues as I've got older means I just don't bother as much any more / have as much time.

Usenet is the way to go (for me anyway) until that finally gets legislated against. After that, god knows, the anonymous p2p clients are just to slow.

I loved emule, but time has overtaken it in my opinion, it's overtaken SD rips too for me and the only viable outlet for me is usenet


killingjokezzz wrote:
I'm exactly the same as PC_Arcade. I've almost completely abandoned emule now, bar the odd mp3 I can't find anywhere else. I occasionally use Bittorrent for the odd UK TV show that I forgot to record. But even then I will search usenet first.

So, as paranoid as I am, I virtually only ever use usenet with SSL now. OK it costs a fair bit for a Giganews Diamond account, but I only ever download HD stuff these days, and you certainly can't do that with emule. From the amount of NZB sites that have sprung up these last couple of years I think many others have taken this route too.

I suppose I'll just follow the crowd and if, and when, usenet takes the hit I'll move on to something else more secure.


elchupacabra wrote:
I was and am mainly using eMule. At the very beginning I tried iMesh, Kazaa and their shitty companions. eMule turned out to be the best with its hashing system. I very rarely use torrents for Video-Man rips. :mrgreen:

In the future I'll be using the mule as long as possible.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:43 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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Ah, so it didn't reach oblivia.

Really tho, nothing posted @ Fh blew me out of my socks.

Well there was this ....
Spud @ FH wrote:
...as is a lot of university research on GRID storage, etc....


Ah, seen one to many Keanu Reeves movies have we ?

Seriously I didn't mention those dimensions for I consider them to be the Next-next big thing, 5 years off at least before any of it will be widely implemented & utilized.

Having said that, I still owe you an answer to what the next big thing is.....

And honestly, I think....... NOTHING.

Certainly for the next 12 months it will remain the rapidshare - torrents - usenet trinity....

For "Anti-p2p-Counter-measures", it shalll be a year of wait and see, how far governments are willing and allowed to get by their electoral entities...
Surely not all nations will bend COMPLETELY over....

Though I did find your confidence of the web being uncontrollable to be unsettling.
Hypothetically, if all nations were to go China on our asses well , R.I.P p2p...
You would need that kind of "Memory-net" , completely cache-based storage network that could "split off" from the main net anywhere and anytime it would wish....

Not unlike illegal radio-stations of those wacky '60s & 70's.

Ah , the more things change..... you know the other part.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:47 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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Quote:
Ah, seen one to many Keanu Reeves movies have we ?


erm no, i actually attended uni and was offered a PhD placement for reasearch into GRID computing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_computing

I highly doubt whatever movie you think you saw it in was talking about the same thing.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:31 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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spudthedestroyer wrote:

erm no, i actually attended uni and was offered a PhD placement for reasearch into GRID computing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_computing

I highly doubt whatever movie you think you saw it in was talking about the same thing.


Fascinating! After reading the wiki (well the first part anyway) I immediately thought of
my old SETI@home account. I haven't used that in a while but loved the idea of it. I think
that is a wonderful model to work from. Everyone sharing a work load for a common good.

In relation to file sharing, what is the difference between the torrent system and the application
of the 'GRID computing' model? It kinda looks the same to me. A bunch of computers hooked up
(by torrent files and DHT) together sharing data. From what I can gather, the GRID system is
beneficial for a single grand task, yes? But the idea of loosely coupled computers seems to be
already in place for torrents.

I guess you'll have to dumb it down for me Spud! :googley:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:06 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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well it was GRID storage specifically; the problem with GRID computing is collating a set a set of data be shared by a vast volume of machines.

If you think of basic operations; in the case of SETI@home, you download a set to work on (ie, work on these radio transmissions and try and apply these calculations to find patterns) and your spare cycles crunch numbers and then return the results back to a central location (this section warrants further research or this is crap). This isn't distributed storage it is pushing a task out to many machines to speed the task. That works fine if you are just crunching numbers, but there's a lot of research in efficient distribution and storage because not all tasks require such a small amount of input but would similarly benefit from a super computer GRID; where vast amounts of data need to be distributed across many machines. They use concepts like dictionaries to alias complex structures as a simple key, and then can reconstruct a large data pattern with a much shorter pattern of data.

The main point I was making is there's loads of scope, but its interesting to see how they are optimising data transfers for that application and there's a lot of research into efficient data transmission. In terms of file distrubtion it won't directly apply of course, but some of the techniques can be applied to minimise the amount of traffic between peers as well as the distribution of certain packets of data to end peers (either anonymising between nodes, or directly from one peer in a grid to another).


About torrents, no the system is simple peer to peer one, which is fragmented by an overall tracker system which doesn't work in its favour. The DHT system was doomed to failure because it directly conflicts with the tracker system; which is why its woefully inadequate next to say, KAD.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:36 am  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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ahhh !! all this text :suicide:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:56 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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Janitor wrote:
ahhh !! all this text :suicide:




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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:04 am  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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If you can read the contents of that image, you don't need any glasses. That looks a 100% MS Visio. :shadey:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:19 pm  Post subject: Re: What's the next big thing?
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RedVeil wrote:
If you can read the contents of that image, you don't need any glasses. That looks a 100% MS Visio. :shadey:


Probably. I found that picture just by googling 'grid computing'. There is a larger one but I didn't
want the pic to become too obnoxious. :wink:

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