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Wes Craven, Scream and "Loathing" in Las Vegas https://forum.dead-donkey.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3754	Page 1 of 4

Author:

Jynks [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:05 am ]

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Wes Craven, Scream and "Loathing" in Las Vegas

*The following is split from the ginger snaps 3 thread, regarding films that have had an effect on the genre positive or negative. The following comment brought up Scream, but all other posts are regarding the film itself, not the 'effect' its had.*

SpudTheDestroyer wrote:

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Though I have a bit a a gripe with American Warwolf in london... I feel it is directly responsible (along with its team mate Evil Dead 2) for cheapening the hroor genre into a buch of stupid jokes...

Should make sense now!
Reply:
My gripe is fucking scream :matrix:

That's what's given rise to all this 'self-reflective we're so funny' horror foulness.

It's kind of the case, but American Werewolf gave way to all the brilliant 80s horror too (without it I don't know where we'd be to be honest), where evil dead 2 took the crown. Evil Dead 2 is one of the best films ever made, I can never have a gripe with that

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Evil Dead 2 is one of the best films ever made

No Argument there

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My gripe is fucking scream That's what's given rise to all this 'self-reflective we're so funny' horror foulness

Scream is the pinical of that kind of stuff, The Horror/Comedy. Do not get me wrong American Warewolf is FANTASTIC but it kicked that fuckn snowball down the hill in the first place.

Author:	paul-scream22 [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:47 am ]
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I'm the Evil Dead King! I love those films, and Part 2 was the best. A remake of part 1, but with bigger budget and more experience behind the crew. But I'm afraid to say I'm a huge Fan of Scream as well! And think that people can be too harsh on this film. Yes your points are relevant Spud/Jynks and I'm definetly not arguing with them. But I thought the film was very well made and that Wes Craven did a great job of balancing the humour and horror so not to end up with a slapstick comedy Indeed many film studios and directors actually wanted it to be a spoof parody of Horror Films and it was only Wes Craven who saw Scream for what is was - a great Slasher Film with elements of humour. So none of you like the opening of Scream? The Casey Becker killing? I really liked it and thought it was a great opening to a slasher fim! And I think that the few elements of Scream that are wrong are fair out weighed by the elemenets that make scream good! I just think saying scream is Crap is a bit harsh - thats all! /notice i'm not mentioning 2 or 3 here, they don't exist But I'm hoping that there are some peolpe out there that, albeit don't think Scream as good as F13 etc etc, but appreciate it for what is is like I do! Anyway rant over

Author:	Purple.Nightmare [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:21 am ]
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hey i'm gonna side with paul-scream22 here (runs and hides in the closet) as i actually quite liked Scream. Think am gonna have 2 give Dog Soldiers another watch tho as did not like it much 1st time (maybe jus wasnt in the right mood) but i enjoyed The Howling and The Company Of Wolves much more. American Warewolf is the mutts btw

Author:

paul-scream22 [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:25 am ]

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Purple.Nightmare wrote:

hey i'm gonna side with paul-scream22 here (runs and hides in the closet) as i actually quite liked Scream.

bring it on, now all we need is for Spud n Jynks (not to admit they love it but) to agree that it isn't as bad as they make out..................

We're in for a wait :wink:

I hope you was in the wrong mood PN, coz Dog Soldiers was good.
I enjoyed it alot!

Forget about the future, so called, consequences of Scream etc etc.
In it's own right, it's not that bad a film

Author:

ViSCeRaL [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:39 am ]

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Purple.Nightmare wrote:

(runs and hides in the closet)

hehe.

Now PN has to come out of the closet. :lol:

It's the only place to go unless you want to stay in there!

Author:

spudthedestroyer [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:33 pm ]

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Scream was a piece of shit, I don't rate it at all and never have. Infact all Wes Craven's films are all pretty shit bar the odd exception. Personally, Wes Craven's New Nightmare was a far better film than Scream, and contains all the traits that Scream is supposed to be claimed to have invented. It is another self-aware horror film, but it actually succeeds.

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A remake of part 1

aarrggghhh How wrong can you be? :lol:

It's not a remake. It takes place AFTER the first night that is evil dead, the first few minutes is a summary of the first night/first film, hence Ash's narration (the rest of the film is not past tense, and hence, indicates when the story begins). Note the sequel picks up with the shot which is Raimi riding on a motobike through the house to ash last scene in Evil Dead 1. It is a sequel through and through.

Evil Dead 2 kicks in after it summarises part one and cuts out the cannon fodder characters which arent needed to establish Evil Dead 2's plot and story.

Return of the Living Dead has a remake in it's second part. Note the dead charaters are back to life and the existance of the first film is erased and the story takes place otherwise (with killable zombies). Evil Dead 2 is not a remake no more than Army of Darkness is (which once again recaps why "I [ash] is a slave").

If you mean it was Sam Raimi's second attempt at doing Evil Dead in a different style, yes, it you mean it is a remake, sorry, no it can't be and isn't

Oh and scream sucks, truely. An overrated lump of crap that is unworthy of such high status. It's an inferior slasher and should be flogged on its own merit not just because of the shit its caused after release. Is that a fog horn I can hear? BOOORRR----IIIINNNNGGG

Author:	Jynks [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:41 pm ]
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The only thing I credit scream with is the fancy writting that allows the killer to stalk around the house after the cowering girl covreed in blood, feathers, holding a knife and a gun.. apart form that i think spud said it all.

Author:

paul-scream22 [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:50 pm ]

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spudthedestroyer wrote:

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A remake of part 1

aarrggghhh How wrong can you be? :lol:

YES I meant remake in the sense that it is what Part 1 should have been, if they'd have had the budget and the expertise!
Remake was a wrong word choice - hhhmmm
a Re Do maybe?
Same concept of people trapped in the cabin with the evil force outside, and peolpe turning zombie - just better effects/direction etc etc was what I meant by the term REMAKE!

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If you mean it was Sam Raimi's second attempt at doing Evil Dead in a different style, yes,

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It's an inferior slasher and should be flogged on its own merit not just because of the shit its caused after release.

Anyway, you can't really blame a film for things that are out of it's control. it jaws shite coz it spawned a mountain of incredibly bad Shark / Killer Fish films?

And what exactly makes Scream such a bad slasher flick in comparison with others?
Out of interest of course, not provoking anything.
Just really can't see where the hatred for scream comes.
Again the Film NOT the aftermath :wink:

If you take the single viewing of the film Scream and form an opinion based on that alone!

I just can't beleive you went to cinema/VHS/DVD and sat through the first 10 minutes thinking
"God this is a peice of shit" and switched it off or left!

I might have to do an official is Scream the movie in it's own right really that bad poll, but I fear that people will vote incorrectly coz they blame it for IKWYDLS et al :roll:

Author:	paul-scream22 [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:53 pm ]
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And on another back topic, what the hell is the deal with Evil Dead 1,2,3. Coz I don't think any1 knows exactly if it is a continuation The commentary for AOD has Bruce Campbell stating the confusion around whether ASH would be stupid enought to go back to the cabin AGAIN with his girlfreind, and Sam Raimi just avoids the whole continuity thing by making a joke!!! I know they had trouble aquiring the rights to use footage from the 1st film in Evil Dead 2 so had to reshot some of the flash back scenes! Lets Hope Evil Dead 4 will lay those questions to rest. AND YES THERE WILL BE AN EVIL DEAD 4 - THERE HAS TO BE, IT'S ALL I'M LIVING FOR!!!

Author:

spudthedestroyer [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 3:55 pm ]

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hehe, I was just pissed cos al the cretins at imdb go on about remake this and remake that and you have to sign up to have a go at them :lil:, and you just have to watch it to realise it's not a remake at all. Notice the shift in narration, it's clear its a sequel, i think raimi knows that (yes i've listened to the commentries on all the films.. right up there with Kevin Smiths in terms of enjoyability), and i think the joke is at the expense of those that think its a remake, or at least that's what I thought. A lot of reviewers have written a 'remake' (normally those who are unworthy of reviewing such a film and subsequently are way off in reviewing it). Their comments go to show it is a sequel though, as god himself says ash would be stupid to go back, so its either a remake or a retelling. Just the way the narration shifts when the camera hits him and he starts flying through the trees made it obvious for me that it wasn't a remake.

Anyways, back to scream.

No, jaws is a very good film, scream isn't, regardless of aftermath. Just like sequels it isn't possible or fair to say such a thing. I don't get what your trying to say about aftermath, i've never tried to justify it being a bad film because of the aftermath in my posts, i've commented it about being a piece of shit and i've commented about it being an annoyance because of what its done to the genre (seperate but both negative - and double negative doesn't make a positive, just a big negative :lol:

)... this is made worse in retrospect by the fact that the film is totally unworthy of having an effect, in so far that scream is even more annoying, not a worse film in isolation.

Note

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not just

The storyline is the pits, its not even a good 'horror'. There's no atmosphere, there's no decent plot per say (some neat writing i suppose but this film would have been better in the hands of some like hitchcock who would really make it an experience not just another slasher), there's no tension or anything that keeps u gripped to the screen, there's no aspect of the film that makes it really that enjoyable, there was nothing new (see candyman, New Nightmare for some greats). The only selling point that I can fathom is Wes Craven's on the cover (imo this is pretty much his career to a tee)

I reiterate, very overrated director and not a very good film

Quote:

I just can't beleive you went to cinema/VHS/DVD and sat through the first 10 minutes thinking
"God this is a peice of shit" and switched it off or left!

I was very happy answering the phone and going to make something to eat halfway through, without even pausing the video if i recall correctly. The story was so tired it wasn't really missing much. Rewatching is out of the question now i've seen it a few times on tv, its not even entertaining (religated to background ambience).

I'd go for New Nightmare or Candyman as a better choice anyday.

My 2 cents on the matter.

The howling, Dog Soldiers (personal favourite), Werewolf in London, Dances with Wolves (a gothic feminist work as much as horror but very vivid imagery well worthy of mention) and the wolfman are some greats to checkout

ps. if i recall, u had drew barrymoore from scream as a avatar, and what with the name... i'm not trying to change your mind or anything

I just don't think its good, new or clever (or that entertaining), and i find it quite unjustifiable that it has been come into regard as some kind of great modern horror film at all.

Author:	spudthedestroyer [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 4:09 pm ]
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oh and monster squad

Author:	PC_Arcade [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 4:17 pm ]
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The same arguments against Scream can also be levelled at Nightmare on Elm street, I CANNOT for the life of me understand how Wes craven has such a good reputation amongst horror fans. With the possible exception of The People Under the Stairs everything he's done since LHOTL is bollocks IMHO. Although I would say the blame for modern jokey horror films lies with the nightmare on elm street series.

Author:

paul-scream22 [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 4:53 pm ]

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spudthedestroyer wrote:

Yep indeed! It's just a straight carry on / sequel but so many people do claim it to be a remake, but I'm totally in the camp of NONE remake, but definetly them taking Part 1 and CONTINUEING the story with more expertise and budget and experience :wink:

And Evil Dead Commentary is the BEST you'll find on any DVD, i watch the film more with the commentary on then off :lol:

spudthedestroyer wrote:

Anyways, back to scream.
The storyline is the pits, its not even a good 'horror'.
There's no atmosphere,
there's no decent plot,
there's no tension,
there's no aspect of the film that makes it enjoyable,

hhhmmmmm, I'm dead wrong about this film then!

I think the whole masked killer is such a good idea, and love slasher films for the whole who done it ending etc etc. Except Jason/Freddy where they are supernatural and you just watch 'em kick ass!

And atmosphere, I thought there was, with Marco Beltrami's great soundtrack and some great photographt and camera work. I especially loved the Sidney's lament scene where she falls asleep at home and ghostface comes after her after talking on the phone!

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Not one aspect of this film that makes it enjoyable

Blasphemy to me that is :evil:

Well you hate Scream and I love Scream. We'll leave it at that!

But I will be honest and say that probably alot of it comes from the preiod that it was released!
I had just started Sixth Form College and earning a wage too , so could afford these new fangled Laserdiscs and all these banned and uncut horror discs and my appreciation for horror was growing.
It was the start of the internet in peoples home and dial-up was free with freeserve and everybody was "online".
And the internet was a great place of information around Scream and a huge community of us did crappy little webpages all about it, in HTML 3 most probably.

And we were all rife with the infamous 3rd killer concept, it was a battle to get news on the sequels etc.
When they were scheduled to film our websites were a mass with rumours and gossip and stuff about who was in it, who was the killer, whether Sidney would die etc etc!
So I don't know when you saw Scream if it was at this time when it received it's cinema release, then maybe (just maybe) your opinion would be different. but i doubt it!

FILMS ARE FOR ALL I SAY!
Some hate some, some love some!

hhhmm not a bad signature slogan that I may use it

Author:	spudthedestroyer [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 5:01 pm ]
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Plus if u don't take it as a sequel, that erases Evil Dead 1 and that is not a good thing lol, my experience of scream. "I'll watch this video" yawn My phone rings... Brain --> hooray! Return, watch for a while. Brain --> me so hungy Go make food Return, watch to completion Hella-pissed me be, says I! ps. it may not have been food, i can remember breaking twice though.. you get the idea of how well i was entertained... like a kid with ADD reading wuthering heights

Author:

paul-scream22 [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 5:10 pm ]

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I think we need a bash on Wes Craven thread now1

i do agree but unfortunatly as most things happen, he's got some BIG name films nuder his belt and can run for alooooooong time with them.

Everybody likes at least one WC film, and alot of his have made money so he's gotten away with all the crap that he's made!

Personally I like his biography and the struggle he had getting NOES made and think that it is a good addition to the 80's horror era, and would prefer a world with it rather then without!

And when asked what the hell he was thinking when he made Hills Have Eyes Part 2 he is quoted as replying :

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I was broke and desperate......I would have made Godzilla goes to Paris if it had gotten me some cash

Well, We'll leave it at that!

Well arguemented Spud and I always wanted to know more as to why you slated Scream off in past posts, so, glad I know now :wink:

/Still think you're being OVER harsh though mate....But won't mention it again - Promise

Author:	Chadman [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 6:47 pm ]
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SScream was great. I think too many people get caught up in the hype machine. For those who can follow the hype, all is good, but, for those who can't, they overrreact negatively to it. Watching Scream the first weekend, I knew it was going to be a classic. Hearing the great reviews and box office that followed, I knew that a lot of people would hate it. Meh.

Author:

paul-scream22 [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:16 pm ]

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Chadman wrote:

SScream was great. I think too many people get caught up in the hype machine. For those who can follow the hype, all is good, but, for those who can't, they overrreact negatively to it. Watching Scream the first weekend, I knew it was going to be a classic. Hearing the great reviews and box office that followed, I knew that a lot of people would hate it.
Meh.

Nice1 Chadman, another Disciple of Scream who was lucky enough to experience it at the right time!

I suppose Scream is the Excorcist of the 90's!

To some people it's great etc etc, and to others they don't see what all the fuss is about and think it's lame ass :lol:

Author:	Chadman [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:18 pm ]
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Exactly. The thing about the Exorcist is that I didn't like it as much the first time I saw it. I was too young. Now that I have kids, that movie freaks me out.

Author:	spudthedestroyer [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:34 pm ]
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Exorcist is cool. I didn't like it very much the first time I saw it either, its a film that's a lot more enjoyable to watch on your tod For Scream it wasn't hype or anything (infact, I only heard a bit about it in passing, it was that "tit on the tin" I'd noticed when picking it at the video store (Wes Craven))... its just not a very entertaining or noteworthy film; like all the other Craven films its just tosh.

Author:	paul-scream22 [ Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:27 pm ]
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I just typed a whole load of dribble I can't be arsed getting into! But Scream definetly has casued some emotions in people and resulted in a definite camp of LOVE AND HATE!!! Untill I joined this board I thought the majority liked scream but I reckon it is probably 50/50!!

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